Who SHOULD decide how your bass sounds live?

[Slough Feg Bass]

soundcheck!

"hey sound person here is the DI from my own DI box, and here is a wet signal w/ EQ & effects. I start off the set so need my bass super loud up front for the first 1/2 of the first song.
4th song, I have a lot of effects going on, so please try and highlight that in the mix for that.
the 8th song has a long interlude in the middle with a short bass solo, please try and give it a bump.
For your reference, here is a printed set list with notes.
Thanks sound person!"

 

[kalle74]

You. In small rooms your amps carries the room. In larger rooms and outdoors you hire your own FOH SE, with whom you have discussed 1) your sound and it's role, and 2) most importantly, the sound of your band and how bass fits into the context of band sound.

 

[Savage_Dreams]

They should decide how to make your tone sound good in the room, but they should not decide what your tone is. There is a big difference between that.

for example: I had a rack and pedals and a sound guy wanted to bypass all that and go direct from my bass. Not happening.

 

[bucephylus]

It's not that simple. "It's him/her or me" doesn't cover it.

Optimally, it would be a partnership. This usually happens when a band has the same person running FOH every show.

This usually turns into a pissing contest here at TB. That's a terrible (and immature) way to go about it. "I've spent thousands of dollars and years coming up with MY SOUND and he better damn well put MY SOUND in the PA!!!" Never mind that the sound guy will ultimately win that battle every time. Why? Because you have to go back to the stage and go to work at some point. The sound guy is left there at the board to do whatever he/she wants with your sound. You simply can't win if you choose to lock horns.

Having run sound some as well as being a bass player, I can't tell you how much easier it is to really make you shine if you send me everything. What I mean by this is if you send me the entire frequency spectrum, I can mold it into whatever.

Over simplified explanation alert!

If your sound is too bright, with too little lows, I can boost the lows and beef up your tone.

HOWEVER, if you send me too much lows, and not enough mids and/or highs, I can't do a thing to clean you up and help you cut.

What generally happens is that bass players find their favorite BEDROOM tone after years of experimentation. They get to the gig and assume that "Any good sound guy will make MY SOUND work. Screw that guy if he doesn't like it."

I usually.... kindly and patiently.... try ONCE to ask for a little more mids and highs. If the bass player shoves that down my throat, I simply amplify their awful sound. You see, Jamerson's tone almost never works in a practical live situation. Sure, if you're playing in a Motown band, with stellar musicians who know how to create space for everyone like the Funk Brothers could, you'll be fine. But if you try modern country, rock, funk, stacked soul (wall of sound), etc. with a Jamerson tone, I can't do a thing for you. You're getting buried unless I knock down everything else in the mix with YOUR SOUND.

Short version: Your bedroom tone might SUCK in a live mix. If you want it to suck LOUD, be stubborn with the sound guy. If you want your playing to shine through, send as flat of a signal as you can live with to the board so the sound guy can do whatever is needed with it.

Did you actually read my post? Almost nothing you posted is relevant. At all. Please try again.

Edit: so, I re-read your post. I understand all of what you posted; but it does not address my more general question. I understand that you could probably do a great FOH engineer job with “my sound;” which is nothing particularly weird to begin with. I am asking about the more general sound engineer to sound engineer issue we all have to deal with going from gig to gig. Which, I am asserting, should be easier than what it is.

 

[trevcda]

I wonder how many bass players (and by the same token, bands) actually bother to advance their gig, rather than showing up at a multi-band throw-and-go gig and start barking orders at the sound guy? An input list and a stage plot, well in advance of the show, go a long way (at least for me) in getting special request items handled. If you point at the XLR output of your effect unit of the day and just grunt at me, thinking that the tone you slapped together in your bedroom is just going to work out on the big boy PA, and then walk just away, then, yeah, I will let you suck out loud. Possibly a little louder. Too many newbies that read a too many post on a forum telling that they are the boss, with out factoring in whether or not they have the skills and/or experience to back that up.

Now, if you would like to have a reasonable and brief discussion, I will listen. I may ask for two feeds; a feed from your effects unit and a DI directly off of the bass. The later gives me a dry feed to mix in with your effects, when they sound like bees in a jar, because it's mixed for a limited frequency bass amp rather than a full range PA.

I think if you, as a bass player, expect to exercise control over your sound out of the PA, you should bring your own sound person or make your signal going to the PA incredibly difficult to screw up.

 

[Hummergeist]

That first conversation with the sound person tells you everything you need to know. Either they're professional and engaged, or they're not. Then you make your setup accordingly.

 

[bucephylus]

Folks: what is with all this “in my bedroom” garbage? That’s just particularly and pointlessly demeaning. I’ve been gigging for 50 years now. I’ve got just a little more experience than “in my bedroom.” WTH.

Again.... backlines are going away. We are showing up more and more with some kind of preamp DI. Somehow that has to translate into some kind of FOH sound. I’m simply suggesting that similar modeling could be used to provide a starting point for the FOH to emulate actual bass amps, and again - SIMPLY AS A STARTING POINT FOR A WELL INTENTIONED SOUND ENGINEER. I’m not dissing sound engineers. Just trying to stimulate constructive discussion about the evolving soundstage.

Please don’t use this as some kind of tribal chance to bust the OP chops.

 

[lokikallas]

Ideally you have a guy who knows your sound and can mix to your taste. I would take what I can get and make the best of it if it’s a house guy.

 

[bucephylus]

I give up. Sorry I started the thread. Carry on....

 

[JRA]

I am asking about the more general sound engineer to sound engineer issue we all have to deal with going from gig to gig. Which, I am asserting, should be easier than what it is.

we don't "all have" that issue: many of us use the same FOH talent(s) from one gig to another. it's a style of presentation that eliminates a lot of what you seem to be concerned about.

 

[mattj1stc]

To me, there are 3 aspects to the original question.

When playing very small spaces, where there is no PA, we have to work together to fit the space we're playing. Since I'm only able to use my amp, the good news is that I have control over my sound, but there's no board or keep us all balanced and aligned, so results can vary.

When playing smaller gigs where we can use our own small PA, all of us in the band definitely have input on how we sound in mix. Not that there are never disagreements or changes (song to song, or slight differences that grow over time), but for the most part we're working collaboratively to try to fill the space with our sound as best we can. In these cases, I may go without an amp or I may use my amp just as my personal monitor.

In the rare event that we play a larger space, utilizing someone else's PA and board, you're somewhat at the mercy of the venue's sound engineer. Some are very easy to work with and will spend time getting all of us dialed in as best they can (note: we're definitely not a headlining band, so getting us optimized is not as much of a priority). Others may take a "one size fits all" approach and just have us play through the settings that are defaults for the room (or for the headlining band). While it would be nice to be more involved, in many cases, the lack of interest in us or our sound is somewhat understandable. Also, in theory, the sound engineer should know the PA and the room well, so the mix shouldn't be terrible - I'm willing to believe that the sound engineer is competent and well intentioned. Mostly, this is the case, even in cases where our input is minimal.

Maybe I'm too easy or lenient on this topic, but then again, I have a relatively simple signal chain. My clean line is a passive 5 string P bass into a REDDI into the board and my effects line is the same bass into a VT Bass Deluxe into the board. Again, my amp (when I have one) is just there so I can hear myself on stage. I know that others have more refined/complex signals that may be negatively impacted by an indifferent sound engineer.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Best case is the engineer tries to give you what you want and get it set in the mix for the whole band to sound good. Reality is you will never know what is sounds like sitting the FOH. Regardless of the cooperation of the sound engineer, you will always be at his mercy.
I suggest being nice to sound engineers.

 

[getBAK]

I long ago "released" FOH sound. In places that are big enough to have a house sound engineer, I'll probably have no idea how FOH actually sounds from the stage. Let alone the feedback/throb frequencies etc unique to the venue.

I'll try to speak with the sound engineer for a couple of minutes before a show. Prep him if I'll be changing over to a fretless on certain songs. I always run some form of DI, generally off the XLR on the back of the head. If SE wants to mic the cab, dealer's choice. In general, in all venues I try to run very minimal stage volume as a loud amp just makes a mess.

The bottom line is: no matter what I say, the house engineer is going to run FOH as he sees fit

 

[PWRL]

Folks: what is with all this “in my bedroom” garbage? That’s just particularly and pointlessly demeaning. I’ve been gigging for 50 years now. I’ve got just a little more experience than “in my bedroom.” WTH.

Again.... backlines are going away. We are showing up more and more with some kind of preamp DI. Somehow that has to translate into some kind of FOH sound. I’m simply suggesting that similar modeling could be used to provide a starting point for the FOH to emulate actual bass amps, and again - SIMPLY AS A STARTING POINT FOR A WELL INTENTIONED SOUND ENGINEER. I’m not dissing sound engineers. Just trying to stimulate constructive discussion about the evolving soundstage.

Please don’t use this as some kind of tribal chance to bust the OP chops.

I hear you. There have been a number of attempts, as I'm sure you're aware, to produce various amp modeling products, such as the no longer produced Line 6 Bass Pod. I'm pretty sure Fender makes some small bass combos that let you choose from various Fender bass amps from over the years. One of these would provide a person with some means to do sort of what you're suggesting. I think technology is there, it's just that demand isn't there, yet. People still want big amps that look cool on stage, even if they could potentially do without them.
Although I am not a recording engineer, I suppose that if one were to solve the issue of latency, one might be able to use a computer of some kind to do this sort of thing in an FOH scenario, at least for a limited number of channels or lines, say four or six, something like that.
For me, I don't really mind bringing an amp along, because the gear I have now is all lightweight and more compact than it often was in the days of yore. However, I think there's room for what you suggest.

 

[two fingers]

Did you actually read my post? Almost nothing you posted is relevant. At all. Please try again.

Edit: so, I re-read your post. I understand all of what you posted; but it does not address my more general question. I understand that you could probably do a great FOH engineer job with “my sound;” which is nothing particularly weird to begin with. I am asking about the more general sound engineer to sound engineer issue we all have to deal with going from gig to gig. Which, I am asserting, should be easier than what it is.

When you post a topic here, you invite a conversation.... a BROAD conversation. I literally answered your question with "It's not that simple". Posting a topic doesn't imply "Answer my question specifically in the way I want it answered or go away."

What "should be easier" is bass players (of which I'm one) understanding that their favorite bedroom tones might not work out in a band/mix setting.

Let's put it back to you. How would YOU answer your own question? Would you go out into the room while the sound guy is doing a line check on you and say "OK, boost the lows a little. Maybe cut out the highs for less fret noise. RIGHT THERE! That's it. Don't touch a THING for the rest of the night!" (Yes, I'm taking it to the point of being ridiculous to make a point. I don't think you actually feel that way.) What, specifically, would make it "easier" in your view?

Many here think "I'm paying for the sound guy. He should do what I tell him to. And that means working with my sound, PERIOD." To an extent, that will wind up being the case. If you refuse to budge on "your sound", that's what's going to be amplified, even if it sucks. We can't polish a turd.

It gets murky when there's a house sound guy, or you're the 15th band out of 27 playing that day at a pay-to-play festival. That production guy is running the show. Period. Not much you can do about that. His way or the highway.

(@Paulabass I realize you're a true professional sound person. I didn't mean to ignore the ladies with the term "sound guy" or "he/him/his". It was just shorter than typing out all of the possible gender pronouns that many times. Your expertise is noted and accepted. )

There's a history here. Yours isn't the only thread about this kind of thing. There are dozens, if not a hundred. So there's context you may not be aware of.

 

[two fingers]

That first conversation with the sound person tells you everything you need to know. Either they're professional and engaged, or they're not. Then you make your setup accordingly.

If time is available to engage, this is absolutely true. I'm certainly not saying sound guys should plunk down a Rapco DI box and say "Take it or leave it".

 

[drumvsbass]

The last gig I did through a P.A. with a sound tech I brought 2 P's with flats and an Ampeg Tube D.I. I played with no monitor other than the drum wedge. Tech was happy, my back was happy, and no one in the crowd, not a single one, mentioned anything to do with the bass guitarist not having a glorious Ampeg SVT stack with 2 810's destroying the P.A. and causing low end phase anomalies three blocks from the venue. Win win?

I'll speak from the other side of the desk having done sound, the bassist who complains the most about his tone being represented in the F.O.H. usually (always) has the worst tone. It's either oppressively scooped hi fi with a bank of tweeters, or it's subsonic heft would make Bill Laswell blush.

You want a bass tone that works every time. MIDS!

I have to add though, this is a corporate standpoint for a cover band. If it's your original project, hire a sound guy, put a gun to his head until it's right.

 

[kevindahl]

The player decides what tone works for him/her on the stage. The sound tech then works the bass signal, mic'd and/or direct, in the room mix.

It then can be a collaboration between the two work to out any EQ issues.

If the musician and sound tech know what they are doing the process is pretty seamless. If both or one of them don't, then thats when you usually get a crappy muddy or thin tone.

 

[Pings Bass]

If there's a warm body at the FOH position, you have to trust that person with your sound and the overall sound of the act for better or worse. If not, it's usually the room that decides your sound, and it's usually crap. Hate to be the one that breaks it to you, but what you hear as "perfect" on stage sounds like hot garbage out front.

 

[Jeff Hughes]

One time I was doing sound for a wedding band. There was a lot of bleed from amps into the vocal mics.

This was a gig where the bassist could have used a 210 or 115 with Pa support. Instead he was playing a ported 410.

He kept turning his stage volume up. I kept pulling him more out of the mix until nothing was left.

Oh to have the power...