Who SHOULD decide how your bass sounds live?

[Rip Van Dan]

When you post a topic here, you invite a conversation.... a BROAD conversation. I literally answered your question with "It's not that simple". Posting a topic doesn't imply "Answer my question specifically in the way I want it answered or go away."

What "should be easier" is bass players (of which I'm one) understanding that their favorite bedroom tones might not work out in a band/mix setting.

Let's put it back to you. How would YOU answer your own question? Would you go out into the room while the sound guy is doing a line check on you and say "OK, boost the lows a little. Maybe cut out the highs for less fret noise. RIGHT THERE! That's it. Don't touch a THING for the rest of the night!" (Yes, I'm taking it to the point of being ridiculous to make a point. I don't think you actually feel that way.) What, specifically, would make it "easier" in your view?

Many here think "I'm paying for the sound guy. He should do what I tell him to. And that means working with my sound, PERIOD." To an extent, that will wind up being the case. If you refuse to budge on "your sound", that's what's going to be amplified, even if it sucks. We can't polish a turd.

It gets murky when there's a house sound guy, or you're the 15th band out of 27 playing that day at a pay-to-play festival. That production guy is running the show. Period. Not much you can do about that. His way or the highway.

(@Paulabass I realize you're a true professional sound person. I didn't mean to ignore the ladies with the term "sound guy" or "he/him/his". It was just shorter than typing out all of the possible gender pronouns that many times. Your expertise is noted and accepted. )

There's a history here. Yours isn't the only thread about this kind of thing. There are dozens, if not a hundred. So there's context you may not be aware of.

I do think his critique of "bedroom tone" is a decent point though. The only people who use bedroom tone are those that are brand new to music or have never been out of the bedroom let alone played in a group. Heck a smiley face EQ-shape (big smile-shaped EQ) sounds good in a bedroom at low levels, but nowhere else and especially not at gig levels. I think the rest of your posts make sense but that "bedroom tone" does come across as demeaning and referring to someone who hasn't a clue what sounds good in a group. And I'm sure you've run across folks like that too.

Personally, I have a wireless and during the sound check I like to walk around the room to see how the balance comes across at the dance floor, the start and back of the tables, and on the sides. Then I make adjustments or suggest adjustments as needed. Usually the adjustments are just volume balance. My sound is pretty straightforward though. I'm not using any effects and run a very flat EQ with just a little boost at either 250Hz (using my amp) or 500Hz (using my WTDI). So my signal chain is pretty easy to deal with.

I prefer the sound of my cab mic'd and at the music festivals where I've performed they always seem to do that. Occasionally one will mic it and take a DI feed too. When I see a sound team do that, I usually smile because it almost always sounds great.

 

[Lagado]

You are always at the mercy of the FOH mixer unless he/she is your own. All the ability, all the expensive gear, is ultimately in their hands.

 

[two fingers]

I do think his critique of "bedroom tone" is a decent point though. The only people who use bedroom tone are those that are brand new to music or have never been out of the bedroom let alone played in a group. Heck a smiley face EQ-shape (big smile-shaped EQ) sounds good in a bedroom at low levels, but nowhere else and especially not at gig levels. I think the rest of your posts make sense but that "bedroom tone" does come across as demeaning and referring to someone who hasn't a clue what sounds good in a group. And I'm sure you've run across folks like that too.

Personally, I have a wireless and during the sound check I like to walk around the room to see how the balance comes across at the dance floor, the start and back of the tables, and on the sides. Then I make adjustments or suggest adjustments as needed. Usually the adjustments are just volume balance. My sound is pretty straightforward though. I'm not using any effects and run a very flat EQ with just a little boost at either 250Hz (using my amp) or 500Hz (using my WTDI). So my signal chain is pretty easy to deal with.

I prefer the sound of my cab mic'd and at the music festivals where I've performed they always seem to do that. Occasionally one will mic it and take a DI feed too. When I see a sound team do that, I usually smile because it almost always sounds great.

"Bedroom tone" is just a generic term for any tone you use away from a love setting. Rehearsal tone would work just as well. Practice tone. Garage tone. They all work.

In short, the sound many players love when they are playing by themselves doesn't cut it (literally) in a mix.

I can work with a very colored tone, even a dirty one, as long as it isn't scooped or just muddy bass. Slappers get a pass on scooped, but their technique usually brightens things up a bit anyway.

 

[bucephylus]

In most live gigs, tone is an afterthought. The crowd wants the thump in their chest and aren't going to care if the original song was recorded on a Ric or a J bass. Both will sound about the same when you are going through the subs. In the studio you can obsess over nuances, but in a live gig, simpler is better and you don't wan t guitar and bass battling for sonic space. You're going to be compressed / limited to prevent spikes and high-passed to protect the subs from you kicking in your octave pedal. The tone that you obsess over for years of various gear and basses is meaningless when confronted with the limitations of the PA system, the venue's acoustics, etc. Live sound is for the performance, the studio is for tone obsession.

I see; so, you are basically an advocate for bass being purely mixed into the subs? I mean OK, if that’s where things are going, then I’m clearly a fossil at this point.

 

[two fingers]

I see; so, you are basically an advocate for bass being purely mixed into the subs? I mean OK, if that’s where things are going, then I’m clearly a fossil at this point.

As a bass player, and a sound guys at times, I don't want to see that happen (or hear it for that matter). Bass is meant to be heard as well as felt. If I had to choose one over the other I would go with heard.

 

[bucephylus]

"Bedroom tone" is just a generic term for any tone you use away from a love setting. Rehearsal tone would work just as well. Practice tone. Garage tone. They all work.

In short, the sound many players love when they are playing by themselves doesn't cut it (literally) in a mix.

I can work with a very colored tone, even a dirty one, as long as it isn't scooped or just muddy bass. Slappers get a pass on scooped, but their technique usually brightens things up a bit anyway.

Sorry; but, you are still not reading my OP. My reference IS live tone. Nothing special. I’m no highway star. But, I do expect my live tone to be something close to what I intend.

FWIW, here is my (admittedly amateur) channel with a few recordings from the past 20 years.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWhRvbhjDbHFvipW-m_xa8A/videos

Some of those had house sound engineers. Some were PA vocals only. Whatever, my concern is just to perform the music with a hopefully musical voice.

But, if you still need to demean my competencies, by all means, have at it.

 

[Pings Bass]

One thing you definitely don't want is your girlfriend telling the sound guy she can't hear the bass. That happened to me one night, and it so happened the sound guy was having some relationship troubles himself, which he was trying to drown in a bottle, and he just said "eff it" and maxed the bass out so loud in the FOH mix I couldn't hear anything else on stage (the bass bins were on the stage at that club). My gf later that night: "well the mix wasn't good, but at least I could hear your bass!" At the end of the night, the band nominated me to tell the sound guy we were docking his pay for his drunken shenanigans, and needless to say, he was not right pleased. It should surprise no one the sound guy was a frustrated guitarist.

 

[bucephylus]

In your OP, you asked “is it just me?”. From the fact that others in this thread have different experience and different views, I would understand that: Yes, it is just you.

That is simply taken completely out of context. What you are implying is that I am the only voice in the forest that something isn’t quite right with the newer ampless technology? Really? So, everyone else out there is just perfectly happy with how that’s working out? I doubt it.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I see; so, you are basically an advocate for bass being purely mixed into the subs? I mean OK, if that’s where things are going, then I’m clearly a fossil at this point.

Going? Have gone for at least 20 years. If you want tonal bliss pick up an upright and play in the symphony. There are just realities of live sound that you're not going to get "your tone" through a large PA system. The upper frequencies that mainly define "your tone" are going to be buried in the mix. Your bass will be compressed with the kick in the side chain - that means your bass will be de-emphasized when the kick drum hits. The emphasis is on making the vocals sound good, then the guitars, in general your bass will be DI'ed and EQ'ed to work well with the rest of the mix and with the PA system.

 

[Wasnex]

I see; so, you are basically an advocate for bass being purely mixed into the subs? I mean OK, if that’s where things are going, then I’m clearly a fossil at this point.

I think you read his intent incorrectly. Some audiences do want the tactile experience provided by loud music, but IMHO chest pump doesn't come primarily from the bass or subs IMHO.

This article provides support for my supposition regarding the frequency range that creates chest pump: Invalid Link Removed

IMHO the bass drum is the instrument that is most likely to create chest pump.

I also think plenty of live music patrons, would appreciate if the music was not loud enough to cause tactile sensations, so the entire post is a bit of an over generalization. I.E. not all audiences are looking for chest pump or loud music. In fact, in my experience bands that can put on a good show at a lower volumes level will tend to get plenty of work.

I believe much of the rest of the post is a commentary on the futility of trying to get studio perfect sound in most live settings. You inferred an understanding of this in the OP, and also a willingness for us avoid discussing the subject further, so in respect to your wishes I withhold comment on this topic.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Should the sound engineer have total decision in how the bass instrument should sound?

If the SE is a flawless human that has perfect pitch and hearing like a dog, then that person gets the total decision.

 

[Killing Floor]

You could do this:

 

[two fingers]

Sorry; but, you are still not reading my OP. My reference IS live tone. Nothing special. I’m no highway star. But, I do expect my live tone to be something close to what I intend.

FWIW, here is my (admittedly amateur) channel with a few recordings from the past 20 years.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWhRvbhjDbHFvipW-m_xa8A/videos

Some of those had house sound engineers. Some were PA vocals only. Whatever, my concern is just to perform the music with a hopefully musical voice.

But, if you still need to demean my competencies, by all means, have at it.

I'm talking to EVERYONE, not just YOU!!! Again, when you post a topic here, it AUTOMATICALLY becomes a CONVERSATION! It is NOT just about YOU!

You open the topic up. And we all bounce it around TO EACH OTHER.

I don't know your tone. Several times in this thread I have used terms like "many players" or "many here" to refer to pretty much the crowd.

I'm not accusing you of having bad tone. Relax. Every thread here is a topic being introduced, and others sharing their experiences. As both a bass player, AND a sound guy, MY experience has been that what makes things hard for bass players in live situations is horrible, muddy tone.

If what you meant to state as a topic was "My tone is awesome but sound guys suck and can't seem to reproduce it out front" why didn't you just do that?

 

[bucephylus]

Going? Have gone for at least 20 years. If you want tonal bliss pick up an upright and play in the symphony. There are just realities of live sound that you're not going to get "your tone" through a large PA system. The upper frequencies that mainly define "your tone" are going to be buried in the mix. Your bass will be compressed with the kick in the side chain - that means your bass will be de-emphasized when the kick drum hits. The emphasis is on making the vocals sound good, then the guitars, in general your bass will be DI'ed and EQ'ed to work well with the rest of the mix and with the PA system.

You and I play music in two very different universes.

 

[HolmeBass]

My experience with SEs mirrors my experience with other musicians quite a bit. If they are good, they will make it sound good. The better they are, the better it will sound. The good ones satisfy requests, make everyone on stage happy, and slay it out front.

Sadly my experience is once we’re at the gig, talking it over is not really going to budge the needle much one way or the other.

 

[Jeff Hughes]

I love it when there is FOH of support. Those are the easiest gigs. I set my level for the stage and the DI gives the sound guy something to work with, and then I just play.

What the mix sounds like doesn’t really matter much to me if I am enjoying playing and I can hear my amp. That is all I need.

 

[bucephylus]

If what you meant to state as a topic was "My tone is awesome but sound guys suck and can't seem to reproduce it out front" why didn't you just do that?

In fact, the main point of my starting the thread was to see whether there were any creative ideas to set digital transform files in the digital boards which would at least provide a starting point for what could constitute reasonable amplified bass tone. I went OUT OF MY WAY NOT to diss sound engineers.

If you want to continue putting words in my mouth just to provoke confrontation, please go find another thread. I absolutely NEVER even insinuated anything close to what you just accused me of. Thanks anyhow.

 

[Thumpin6string]

IMHO, the drunk in the back row should decide how the bass sounds.

 

[Wasnex]

A sound tech has a control over how bass (and other instruments) sound in FOH.

There is no question whether he/she should or should not have it. He/she simply has it. Period.

IMHO the amount of control the audio tech has over the quality of the bass is what is at stake. Sure the audio tech can turn the bass up, but he/she can not always turn it down, so the amount of control is by no means absolute.

Also if the house cannot be mixed significantly louder than sound bleeding off stage, the audio tech really has little control over the tone of the bass. I.E. it's not always appropriate for the audio tech to mix the bass loud enough to make it sound nice.

I tend to prioritize mixing at an acceptable SPL over building the best possible mix. Building a nice mix, typically requires way more volume than I am willing to push into the room. This is the compromise I choose.

 

[Guild B301]

A lot of folks in this thread, could use a subscription to: LiveSound International Magazine. ProSoundNews is a good one also.
I always try to look at things from the sound company’s side of the equation.