Who SHOULD decide how your bass sounds live?

[Samatza]

THIS - I've had too many instances where bleed from the stage means I have NO control. I've had people ask "can you turn down the (guitar, trumpet, drums) and I show them the slider is already at zero. They walk away thinking I'm an idiot and the band sucks. Nobody wins.

Yep, if the stage bleed has to be overcome it's going to be too loud in FOH generally. This is exactly the reason we switched to silent stage and it made all the difference for our gigs. All of a sudden we were getting complemented on our sound rather than complaints of it's too loud or doesn't sound right.

There is little you can do with a bad room, we are lucky that the venues we play regularly have the right amount of sound absorption I think by design so it makes it a lot easier but they're not all going to be like that and often times the sound engineer is not at fault, he's playing the cards he's dealt.

It's our job to make his job as easy as possible, team work always trumps playing the diva card and alienating people that are trying so hard to do their best for you. I don't know why but in 45 years of playing it's almost always been the guitarist that has the volume problem on stage, not saying they're all bad but the statistics are not favouring them as team players.

 

[Hypocrite]

I just wish I got as a long a soundcheck as my guitarists and not a 10-second line check.

 

[Zbysek]

That is simply taken completely out of context. What you are implying is that I am the only voice in the forest that something isn’t quite right with the newer ampless technology? Really? So, everyone else out there is just perfectly happy with how that’s working out? I doubt it.

No. My point was different. You raised a certain concern in your OP. Others offered their view on the (broad) topic, some of them not sharing your concern. You seemed to get offended and asked several times for commenters to go back and read your OP again. I did what you asked for and answered the very specific question contained in your OP. Still you seem to get offended. It's difficult to have a meaningful discussion when you take it personally every time somebody offers different view on the topic.

In short: I don't share your concern. My experience is different from yours. Most of the reasons have already been expressed by others.

Take care.

 

[Zbysek]

IMHO the amount of control the audio tech has over the quality of the bass is what is at stake. Sure the audio tech can turn the bass up, but he/she can not always turn it down, so the amount of control is by no means absolute.

Also if the house cannot be mixed significantly louder than sound bleeding off stage, the audio tech really has little control over the tone of the bass. I.E. it's not always appropriate for the audio tech to mix the bass loud enough to make it sound nice.

I tend to prioritize mixing at an acceptable SPL over building the best possible mix. Building a nice mix, typically requires way more volume than I am willing to push into the room. This is the compromise I choose.

Point taken. I agree with you.

My post was a reply to the question whether sound tech should have control. My point was, that he has a final say what goes out of FOH. I agree with you that the amount of control is limited by circumstances. There is only so much the tech can do-depending on acoustics, stage bleed, gear available etc.

 

[Zbysek]

The idea of bedroom tone is not really a slam. It's pretty much what all of us dial in when we play by ourselves.

Exactly. I would go as far as use this term for any sound profile created by the player without the involvement/assistance of the sound tech and the PA system.

Between 1997-2008, I was touring with a pop singer who was "famous" at these times here in my country. Before every tour, we had a rehearsal lasting several days. The last day or two of the rehearsal was done with the PA system and the sound tech (which and who were then travelling with us).

During this last part of the rehearsal, we finalised sound profiles which were about to be used during the tour. I remember being always surprised by the extent of the changes I had to do to my pre-prepared sound profiles in order to make them work in the mix with the specific PA system.

Since then, I am considering any sound profile which I create a "bedroom tone" unless and until I have a chance to test it with the specific PA system it is to be used with.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[dan1952]

I use zero effects and in most cases, FOH facilitates my sound properly. I've had instances where I was barely in the mix. If I had a 'sound' FOH surely better do their best to make it happen out front. No FOH should ever dictate a band's sound out front.

By definition, the FOH guy determines the FOH sound! Whether the audience is 10 or 10,000, the FOH guy has the same job...

 

[retslock]

“Should” turns out to not mean a great deal if you’re using FOH and an engineer you’re not familiar with. You’ll sound the way they want regardless. Description of tone is pretty subjective and your chances of getting an unknown engineer to truly understand your preference is sketchy at best.

 

[Downunderwonder]

“Should” turns out to not mean a great deal if you’re using FOH and an engineer you’re not familiar with. You’ll sound the way they want regardless. Description of tone is pretty subjective and your chances of getting an unknown engineer to truly understand your preference is sketchy at best.

If the engineer has ears there should never be a problem.

 

[cnltb]

Who SHOULD decide how your bass sounds live?
All this should be a response to whatever room one is playing in.
Live playing is not the same as recording, neither are the sounds that work.
Not turning up too much will always help to achieve at leat an approximation of what one is used to on recordings.
All this 'Imho' ...obviously.

 

[BergerHead]

I know how my bass sounds because i want it to sound as a hot knife in butter... i dislike bassist going for a dull muffed tone, i give it a tight attack on full low mids blow for clear audibility ; best to go for is a P or the L Steinberger to me.

 

[BoogieZK]

Tone is mostly in the low to high mid region so it's a team work between the musician having a specific tone he need for his band and the sound engineer sculpting the sound without altering the tone for a specific venue.
IMHO.

 

[31HZ]

First, my goal as a bass player is to make the band sound good. That means good gear and technique, yes, but also some degree of technical knowledge of the problems inherent in mixing a live band and the use of the tools available to combat those problems.

If you're in a band that you know is hard to mix, you put yourself at a huge advantage if you share advice on carving out space for the instruments (especially at the low end) based on trial and experience; figure out what works in rehearsal and get it on the rider.

For example:
Electric guitar high pass at 250hz; vocals low-shelf EQ -6db at 300hz; keys low-shelf -6db at 200, but +3db at 300; etc.

Cutting mud should be the first order of business in notching out a mix that has space for all instruments; if you can start out speaking the sound engineer's language, you give yourself a better chance (not to mention a head start at a decluttered mix on-stage).

And yes, there will still be times when the engineer has no idea what you are talking about.

 

[obimark]

soundcheck!

"hey sound person here is the DI from my own DI box, and here is a wet signal w/ EQ & effects. I start off the set so need my bass super loud up front for the first 1/2 of the first song.
4th song, I have a lot of effects going on, so please try and highlight that in the mix for that.
the 8th song has a long interlude in the middle with a short bass solo, please try and give it a bump.
For your reference, here is a printed set list with notes.
Thanks sound person!"

Good luck with that fantasy! (Unless your name is Marcus or Flea)

 

[littlebun]

First, before the sound engineering folks jump in and tell me that the sound engineer has to deal with the whole mix and room acoustics etc etc, I already get all that. I’ve been gigging for 50 years now in all types of ensembles and venues; and believe me, I get it that the sound engineer has a lot of important concerns going on. This post / thread is NOT denigrating either that job or the folks who do it.

OTOH, as a practical matter, there is often insufficient time in various gigs to have the one on one time required for a mutual tonal product between the sound engineer and the individual musicians. So, irrespective of whatever bass signal is being sent to the board, what comes out of FOH is often the product of what the sound engineer thinks the bass should sound like. It just happens.

And while it is certainly true that there are venue / mix issues that factor in, it is equally true that there are individual tonal aspects that become convoluted. The worst kinds of cases for me as a bass player happen when the sound engineer thinks the bass should be completely sent to the subs. And believe me, it has happened to me. There are other aspects like compression etc, which may or may not be imposed based on any actual listening.

So, is it just me, or is there something missing from where the technology is going? Should the sound engineer have total decision in how the bass instrument should sound? I mean, if so, I guess all we really need is any old bass and a DI, and hope for the best. Or is there a middle ground, where we are just missing something that would simplify the communication of the instrument prefs to the sound engineer? I’d like to think that is a possibility. Because literally a lot of my ampless gigs are in the chuck it and chance it category.

I think creating our own sound, a tone that isn't boomy, with a little rise in the mids and highs for clarity can be helpful live. That's the sound I send to FOH. I never add bass as that almost always creates problems. If we send a dry, neutral tone, that might get buried sometimes, but it's better than a woofy tone. I believe in sending a well eq'd tone, as some systems can step on my tone.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

So, is it just me, or is there something missing from where the technology is going? Should the sound engineer have total decision in how the bass instrument should sound? I mean, if so, I guess all we really need is any old bass and a DI, and hope for the best. Or is there a middle ground, where we are just missing something that would simplify the communication of the instrument prefs to the sound engineer? I’d like to think that is a possibility. Because literally a lot of my ampless gigs are in the chuck it and chance it category.

Let me stipulate that mine may be a rare situation. That said, my band always works with its own sound engineer, no matter what the venue. After years of working with him, I trust him completely to do the right thing. At this point, he knows more about how I want to sound than I do.

 

[HardNHeavy]

a knife to the soundguys throat usually works

 

[buldog5151bass]

Ideally, you and the sound engineer should be able to talk to know what you and the band want. The ideal seldom happens.

The sound engineer has his ears on the entire room, and should have more experience in balancing/mixing a band. What sounds good to you/on stage may not work FOH.

 

[el murdoque]

My personal recipe for getting 'My' sound across is easy.
I offer the FOH board a signal that will work out of the box.
Compression and EQ are tastefully applied, there is HPF going on
and it sounds well when you run it flat.

Most of the time, bass will only get a line check where the input gain is set.
When there are no major problems (like a certain frequency causing feedback or being boomy), the bass will be disregarded from there. The levels in the mix will be adjusted - and when the bass sound works, it'll be left alone.

 

[rtslinger]

Depends on if you are playing an Arena or a small club, the size of the venue I believe is the deciding factor.
I don't want my bedroom tone screwing up the mix in front of house especially if we have sold a ton of tickets. Get "My Tone" through the monitor mix. If it is a club gig and I can dial in the rooms acoustics and sound good in the over-all mix, I'd go for it. Lastly speaking for me I'm there to rock the house, if there is a SE on the show, I let him do what he is getting paid to do.

 

[Mantis Tobaggan]

I use my wireless unit to stand in the venue and play to hear how it sounds from the crowd. It is very different from on stage.