Who SHOULD decide how your bass sounds live?

[MultiScaleMale]

You and I play music in two very different universes.

Even if it's a gig with two 12" mains and two smallish subs, you won't be able to replicate your idealistic tone. There is a reason that every amp with a DI has a PRE-EQ capability. You can do it in a situation where the volume isn't crazy and your amp can carry the bass. I like the lower volume gigs and my ears do too.

 

[Passinwind]

Please read my OP one more time. Please.

My experience is that such conversations rarely happen on my gigs.

Hmmmm...it happened on every single gig I’ve ever mixed, over a few decades. But the players who got the best results were the ones who actually advanced the gig via tech rider or reaching out directly. If you’re not getting satisfaction I’d suggest starting there.

The reality is that the very great majority of bassists I worked with just told me to do whatever I felt was best.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

If you know what you're doing, you should do it and the engineer will be happy. if you're not sure, leave it to the sound person. If the sound person is , then have a few shots and play the gig.

 

[Wasnex]

I appreciate everyone’s comments.

Again, I wasn’t intending to demean sound engineers. The vast majority of them are good folks trying to get a very complex job done.

What I was hinting around at in terms of technology gaps is that I think we need an extension of the modeling technology, which not only emulates cabs and amps; but which also can be set for various FOH arrangements to provide starting points for the engineer on the board. That way you could quickly and efficiently give the sound engineer a solid starting point on the board and with the FOH that they are working with. I realize there are a number of combinations; but they aren’t infinite.

I’m struck by the majority response that the musician should have input; but, if it doesn’t work out, then just defer to the sound engineer. Sure, that’s what we are doing. But, look at all the technology that we are paying for with instruments, rigs, and signal chains. I’m pretty sure we can improve the situation for both the bass player and the sound engineer in a win-win situation for actual projection of the bass instrument tone from the FOH. But, here’s the deal: we have to ask for it, rather than just acquiescing and putting up with whatever happens. Someone has to understand that there is a need, which has a technology gap to fill. Otherwise, nothing ever happens.

My take is the modeling is sort of like back seat driving. You program your modeler to sound good with a certain amp, in a certain room, at a certain volume. As soon as one of the parameters is changed, the model is no longer optimized and the audio tech has to be free to make some corrections.

Also, chances are you will setup and tweak the modeler while playing by yourself, so you don't really know how well it will work in a mix.

I am not saying modeling is not useful, I am saying the idea of sending a signal to the audio tech with idea that it is perfect and should not be tweaked to the needs of the mix in the specific acoustic environment of the gig is unrealistic.

As an example, I used to run a digital board. The setup at the end of the show served as the starting point for our next sound check. One might assume that I could simply adjust the trimmers on the channels to rebalance levels and that is all that would necessary, and on some occasions you would be correct.

But on other occasions, a massive amount of changes are required to system EQ, individual channel EQ, compression parameters, effects levels, etc., to dial the mix in. I tended to save the ending state of the board as a recallable scene. These scenes were most useful when switching between indoor and outdoor gigs. I tended to keep an indoor scene and an outdoor scene. It might have been useful to keep a wider variety of indoor setups but I never really put much thought into how to grade and classify different rooms.

 

[Wasnex]

Folks: what is with all this “in my bedroom” garbage? That’s just particularly and pointlessly demeaning. I’ve been gigging for 50 years now. I’ve got just a little more experience than “in my bedroom.” WTH.

Again.... backlines are going away. We are showing up more and more with some kind of preamp DI. Somehow that has to translate into some kind of FOH sound. I’m simply suggesting that similar modeling could be used to provide a starting point for the FOH to emulate actual bass amps, and again - SIMPLY AS A STARTING POINT FOR A WELL INTENTIONED SOUND ENGINEER. I’m not dissing sound engineers. Just trying to stimulate constructive discussion about the evolving soundstage.

Please don’t use this as some kind of tribal chance to bust the OP chops.

Most audio techs prefer you plug the bass into a clean/flat DI. Modeling can work well if you can navigate the menus quickly and have time to tweak stuff with the audio tech.

The idea of bedroom tone is not really a slam. It's pretty much what all of us dial in when we play by ourselves. When I play with a band, I pretty much always have to reset my EQ, and I do this on every gig. The EQ I used on my last gig my be close or not. It's rarely perfect.

 

[darwin-bass]

As a bass player and a semi pro sound person,... I find the bass IS THESE MOST DIFFICULT instrument on that stage.

Dear Bassist,

In a live situation it is a struggle just to make the bass heard as anything more than a gas rumble in the gut. Please stop whining about this. I'm on your side and am doing the best I can but science conspires against us.

Save your timbre dreams for the studio where they can become a reality. In a live setting, celebrate the fact that at least you get to be on stage and are considered part of the band.

Sincerely,

Your Sound Tech

 

[Wasnex]

Let's put it back to you. How would YOU answer your own question? Would you go out into the room while the sound guy is doing a line check on you and say "OK, boost the lows a little. Maybe cut out the highs for less fret noise. RIGHT THERE! That's it. Don't touch a THING for the rest of the night!" (Yes, I'm taking it to the point of being ridiculous to make a point. I don't think you actually feel that way.) What, specifically, would make it "easier" in your view?

IMHO we hear our instrument a bit different when we are playing versus simply listening, so I would say this approach is not 100% valid. It is probably the best you can do, but it's not a perfect solution.

As an example, I tend to like my sound way brighter when I am playing than when I am listening. This may be reversed for some people.

 

[Wasnex]

Rule #1, you are the mercy of the person mixing your band.

Assuming the audio tech has absolute control is a false assumption that will most likely lead to conflict and prevent mutually beneficial working relationships from forming.

Perhaps the audio tech did jack Rocco's tone, and perhaps Rocco cranked his amp and the band asked for so much bass on stage that it was simply impossible to deliver a nice bass sound to the audience. Who's fault is this, when the musicians make it impossible for the audio tech to do a good job? This happens a lot in my experience.

Regardless of what actually happened, and it's usually impossible to know for sure, most people simply blame the audio tech.

 

[jdh3000]

I should, but that's never really the case. I have to just deal with what's out there.
I would love to have all the control over my live sound.

 

[thumbknuckle]

First thing you want to do is make sure you know what the signal you are sending to FOH actually sounds like. If that is a mic on a speaker spend some time recording and get a sense of what that actually sounds like, and how it differs from what the rig as a whole sounds like standing in front of it. If it's a pre-everything DI spend some time plugged in to a reasonably accurate system with no EQ, and learn how that sounds different than what your sound through your stage rig sounds like. If it's a post processing DI spend some time listening to that signal on good studio monitors.

The second thing you want to do is get your sound, however you are going to do it, sounding awesome. For whatever definition of awesome is appropriate for the music you are trying to make and the ensemble you are trying to make it with.

If you can follow steps 1 and 2, in almost all circumstances, the FOH engineer is going to get you a reasonable approximation of that sound. We are generally lazy and if we push the fader up and our first impression is "wow, that sounds great" we aren't going to go out of our way to wreck it. Some EQ and dynamics processing will probably need to be applied but if we are starting with something good it will just be some corrections to translate things as they scale up in size.

You will run across the occasional dude who thinks he is Mutt Lange, or an irredeemably bad PA or room, but there isn't anything you can do about that. Just hold up your end and hope for the best.

If you are consistently, in all sorts of different situations, finding that the sound out front is very different from what you are going for it is possible that your sound has problems, and that engineers are struggling to figure out what you are trying to do and how to make it sound good.

 

[Downunderwonder]

In fact, the main point of my starting the thread was to see whether there were any creative ideas to set digital transform files in the digital boards which would at least provide a starting point for what could constitute reasonable amplified bass tone. I went OUT OF MY WAY NOT to diss sound engineers.

the starting point is the input on the bass channel. If all you do is bring up the gain until it's a useful signal and send it out the main out then it shouldn't sound awful.

It might have a lot more lows and highs than your bass cab depending on what you are using, to the point of being destructive to subs and tweeters.

If I was you I would get a HPF/LPF pedal into what you send the house and use a FRFR cab on stage.

 

[Up the dose]

It's my job to give sound man a good bass sound. He mixes it however he wants for the house and whoever is paying me gets to tell me to turn up, or turn down. Dats it.

 

[Lagado]

I've played a lot of gigs straight into a DI through in-house onstage monitors. I do what I do from the bass. A lot of the nuance you get at home, will be severely reduced on a high volume gig. I'd rather go for the presence and definition.

 

[bucephylus]

Anyhow, if I were involved in software development for the Behringer boards etc, I would design virtual backlines, where the musicians could choose their amps, and the FOH would use that as a starting point. But, then I used LabVIEW for a good part of my career. So, what do I know (not much)?

 

[darwin-bass]

Assuming the audio tech has absolute control is a false assumption that will most likely lead to conflict and prevent mutually beneficial working relationships from forming.

THIS - I've had too many instances where bleed from the stage means I have NO control. I've had people ask "can you turn down the (guitar, trumpet, drums) and I show them the slider is already at zero. They walk away thinking I'm an idiot and the band sucks. Nobody wins.

Even in a silent stage situation you have the acoustics of the room that will muddy the mix in a way that you just. can't. fix.

I've done many mixes where the best I can achieve is for each instrument to more-or-less be heard and for volume levels to be tolerable and have been told by audience members the mix sounded great! The bar is set low in live sound.

 

[two fingers]

My take is the modeling is sort of like back seat driving. You program your modeler to sound good with a certain amp, in a certain room, at a certain volume. As soon as one of the parameters is changed, the model is no longer optimized and the audio tech has to be free to make some corrections.

Also, chances are you will setup and tweak the modeler while playing by yourself, so you don't really know how well it will work in a mix.

I am not saying modeling is not useful, I am saying the idea of sending a signal to the audio tech with idea that it is perfect and should not be tweaked to the needs of the mix in the specific acoustic environment of the gig is unrealistic.

As an example, I used to run a digital board. The setup at the end of the show served as the starting point for our next sound check. One might assume that I could simply adjust the trimmers on the channels to rebalance levels and that is all that would necessary, and on some occasions you would be correct.

But on other occasions, a massive amount of changes are required to system EQ, individual channel EQ, compression parameters, effects levels, etc., to dial the mix in. I tended to save the ending state of the board as a recallable scene. These scenes were most useful when switching between indoor and outdoor gigs. I tended to keep an indoor scene and an outdoor scene. It might have been useful to keep a wider variety of indoor setups but I never really put much thought into how to grade and classify different rooms.

Which, in essence, means that sending a digital signal to the board is no different from lining out from, or mixing, an amp. The same rules apply. You figure out a tone you like. I try to make that tone work with the room and the band. If that tone is no good for either, I politely try ONCE to help you help me. If you don't take my advice, I amplify the bad.


All the same rules apply, even with the new technology.

 

[NortyFiner]

Carrots.

Before getting wrapped up about who and how your bass tone gets through the mix, remember: due to the limitations of both human hearing and human attitudes, 90% of the audience can't tell any difference between your personal bass tone and anyone else, and most of the 10% who can won't care. The finer points of bass tone really are mostly just for bass players, like it or not. What's important live is not so much for your personal tone to get through, but simply for you to be heard at all, so you can properly fill your space in the music.

Now obviously, if you're a front line "lead bass" player like Vic Wooten, then getting your personal tone through live is much more important. But that's its own can of worms and not really what this thread is about, I think.

 

[Samatza]

I usually use a wireless unit to go out into the room during soundcheck and have a listen. I can walk to the engineer and give him some input without being obnoxious and that usually works out.

PRE EQ switch is your friend here, your stage rig won't cover the sonic range of a big FOH rig so it pays to give the engineer a nice, flat sound to work with rather than a heavily EQ'd, bass heavy sound that sounds great on stage but has way too much bottom end in the double 18" subs out front.

Most sound guys will listen if your approach is right and you treat them with respect, I've seen bands go the other way and treat them like rubbish, they're as much a part of the overall sound as the band so treat them as part of the team and you'll get the desired result as far as the system and the room will allow.

 

[2F/2F]

You (and your band) should decide the tone that is coming out of your amp.

The sound person should run it flat at first, in an attempt to respect your tonal choices. Then only make changes as necessary to compensate for the characteristics of the venue. The goal of the sound engineer should be to get your intended tone coming through the P.A. That doesn't generally happen with everything set flat, but it's where you start. The good engineers hear what you sound like unmiked, and then equalize their system as necessary to get it sounding as close as possible to that when it's coming through the P.A.

In other words, the sound person should not be making subjective tonal decisions for you. He/she should be doing his/her best to faithfully reproduce your intended tone, by knowing what you want, knowing the idiosyncrasies of the venue, and knowing what his/her equipment can do. That does involve a lot more than just running you flat, though. Adjustments away from flat do need to be made at the board in most venues. So don't tell a sound person simply: "Run me flat," and that's that. Say, "Let's start out flat, and see how it sounds. Then I trust you to make adjustments as necessary to suit the room."

 

[M0ses]

I'm voting carrots this time, and I really mean it.

If anyone on this team isn't invested in making not only themselves but the rest of the band, staff, and crew, look, sound, and feel as excellent as possible,

just forget about it!

Everyone has a unique job and there are a million factors that go into calculating how to do it well. Not only am I obviously responsible for creating the best bass tone possible, I am equally responsible for doing everything I can to make the soundguy's job painless; hopefully he has the same attitude towards me, as, depending on the venue and gear involved, he may have a big role in how I actually sound.