Who SHOULD decide how your bass sounds live?

[Dbassmon]

Rule #1, you are the mercy of the person mixing your band.

You can certainly have a discussion about what you want but they have control. Start by sending a great sounding signal and hopefully the person mixing has good ears, is musical, and has good enough equipment to reproduce a hi-fidelity sound.

Several years ago, I went to Rocco Prestia and Tower of Power, at a local PAC. The sound man assassinated Rocco with a muddy, overly bassy mushy sound with no articulation. One of the baddest cats on the planet and you could not hear one note of what he played.

 

[Valvehead]

Mutual respect should.

 

[Pings Bass]

One time I was doing sound for a wedding band. There was a lot of bleed from amps into the vocal mics.

This was a gig where the bassist could have used a 210 or 115 with Pa support. Instead he was playing a ported 410.

He kept turning his stage volume up. I kept pulling him more out of the mix until nothing was left.

Oh to have the power...

I did sound for the Killer Bees once in the 80s. The key bass guy Stan had stage volume so loud it completely overwhelmed the wimpy house FOH system (a pair of Klipsch La Scalas, and maybe subs? can't recall). I did my best, but it was pretttttty muddy out front. Hard to pull the kick drum out of the mud without destroying the PA, and impossible to reduce the overall volume and still hear the vocals and guitar. I might have said something to Stan, but I don't think he heard me.

Several years ago, I went to Rocco Prestia and Tower of Power, at a local PAC. The sound man assassinated Rocco with a muddy, overly bassy mushy sound with no articulation. One of the baddest cats on the planet and you could not hear one note of what he played.

Whenever you get a rock and roll sound guy doing an R&B or jazz show, it's trouble. I remember hearing Sun Ra at the Melody Ballroom in Portland in the 90s, and the sound company brought in way too much gear and had the levels way too high with way too much boomy bass when the rhythm section started the opening number. When the horns came in, it was a deafening wall of mud. When Sun Ra hit the keys I think some PA horns blew. (Seems like lousy sound reinforcement was more likely than not in Portland of the 90s; I had more than one big name show ruined by crappy sound. Dr. John at the zoo comes to mind; they didn't have the delay stacks delayed. Talk about mud.)

My takeaway is that the best thing you can do for your own live bass sound is to have 1) low or no stage volume, 2) a strong, clean (as in S/N ratio) signal going to FOH, and 3) a qualified sound engineer who understands the kind of music you're making.

 

[2112]

The musician should have some input, but live with the reality that he will not necessarily have the final word.

Acoustics vary and when multiple channels are present, your bedroom tone doesn't usually sound like your bedroom tone anymore. That said, the sound engineer should be taking direction from the band as a whole and using his or her skills to deliver that.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

What would you actually tell the sound engineer that you want from your tone?

 

[Pings Bass]

What would you actually tell the sound engineer that you want from your tone?

"I want the audience to hear every note." That's all I've ever asked.

 

[zubrycky]

I always arrive early at the venue with the most appropriate instrument for the ocasion. Then I introduce myself to the sound guy, asking his name. I mentally write down it and start a casual conversation, offering myself to help in whatever it takes to make sure everything runs smoothly. After all, it's a team work.

I always call the sound guy by his name and offer him a beer later.

After the show I always thank the sound guy for his assistance.

 

[Downunderwonder]

There's two things in the way of your tone making it to the audience.

Your tone vs the band sound.
The soundguy's predilections or inability.

Ideally your band has a great collective mix. The PA is tuned to the room. Turn up the mics and tweak.

A band of bozos all trying to be the loudest thing on stage is more likely to encounter a sub par sound guy. No amount of ''new tech'' is going to fix that.

 

[bucephylus]

What would you actually tell the sound engineer that you want from your tone?

Please read my OP one more time. Please.

My experience is that such conversations rarely happen on my gigs. What I was suggesting was that we need something similar to impulse response functions, such that bass coming out of the FOH sounds simply like an amp. Perhaps even a specific kind of amp, if we got good at it. That would avoid sound engineers putting the bass entirely in the subs, for example.

I personally play with negligible distortion, strive for clear, clean bass tone, often emulating the recorded bass tone on covers. My backline amps have been Demeters, which tells you a lot if you have ever played through them. Nothing fancy. No “my bedroom tone” involved. Many experienced sound engineers have raved about my tone and done full justice over the years. But, in the past decade, I’m getting a) more younger engineers putting the bass entirely in the subs and b) more inexperienced “sound engineers” running the board, because lower level club gigs have gone that direction. Both issues would benefit from getting at least a starting point.

I don’t understand why that concept is so terribly complicated. But, apparently the idea is mainly an oppo for cats to post a bunch belligerent and irrelevant personal diatribe, perhaps from previous thread carry over. I don’t get it.

 

[micguy]

I play in churches. Anyone (musician or FOH) that comes in with an ego or an attitude won’t be asked back. The band is the warm up act for a lecture, and even while we’re playing, the singers and the words they’re singing are more important than what I do, no matter how well I do it.

As far as me and the FOH person, I’m ampless. I control what I send to FOH, but how I ultimately sound is beyond my control. An adversarial relationship with FOH is something I avoid like the plague. We’re on the same team!

 

[SteveC]

I guess I don’t have to deal with either incompetent or a hole sound people. I asked mine at the last gig if he had any filters on me. He said no but we could. He grabbed his iPad and set the low and high pass filter where I suggested. Done. After the gig he said it helped with some definition. I’m still not sure why my Roscoe wouldn’t be defined but this helped.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Please read my OP one more time. Please.

My experience is that such conversations rarely happen on my gigs. What I was suggesting was that we need something similar to impulse response functions, such that bass coming out of the FOH sounds simply like an amp. Perhaps even a specific kind of amp, if we got good at it. That would avoid sound engineers putting the bass entirely in the subs, for example.

I personally play with negligible distortion, strive for clear, clean bass tone, often emulating the recorded bass tone on covers. My backline amps have been Demeters, which tells you a lot if you have ever played through them. Nothing fancy. No “my bedroom tone” involved. Many experienced sound engineers have raved about my tone and done full justice over the years. But, in the past decade, I’m getting a) more younger engineers putting the bass entirely in the subs and b) more inexperienced “sound engineers” running the board, because lower level club gigs have gone that direction. Both issues would benefit from getting at least a starting point.

I don’t understand why that concept is so terribly complicated. But, apparently the idea is mainly an oppo for cats to post a bunch belligerent and irrelevant personal diatribe, perhaps from previous thread carry over. I don’t get it.

In most live gigs, tone is an afterthought. The crowd wants the thump in their chest and aren't going to care if the original song was recorded on a Ric or a J bass. Both will sound about the same when you are going through the subs. In the studio you can obsess over nuances, but in a live gig, simpler is better and you don't wan t guitar and bass battling for sonic space. You're going to be compressed / limited to prevent spikes and high-passed to protect the subs from you kicking in your octave pedal. The tone that you obsess over for years of various gear and basses is meaningless when confronted with the limitations of the PA system, the venue's acoustics, etc. Live sound is for the performance, the studio is for tone obsession.

 

[Rib 13]

So, irrespective of whatever bass signal is being sent to the board, what comes out of FOH is often the product of what the sound engineer thinks the bass should sound like.

and so has been the situation since the dawn of soundmen.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Please read my OP one more time. Please.

My experience is that such conversations rarely happen on my gigs. What I was suggesting was that we need something similar to impulse response functions, such that bass coming out of the FOH sounds simply like an amp. Perhaps even a specific kind of amp, if we got good at it. That would avoid sound engineers putting the bass entirely in the subs, for example.

I personally play with negligible distortion, strive for clear, clean bass tone, often emulating the recorded bass tone on covers. My backline amps have been Demeters, which tells you a lot if you have ever played through them. Nothing fancy. No “my bedroom tone” involved. Many experienced sound engineers have raved about my tone and done full justice over the years. But, in the past decade, I’m getting a) more younger engineers putting the bass entirely in the subs and b) more inexperienced “sound engineers” running the board, because lower level club gigs have gone that direction. Both issues would benefit from getting at least a starting point.

I don’t understand why that concept is so terribly complicated. But, apparently the idea is mainly an oppo for cats to post a bunch belligerent and irrelevant personal diatribe, perhaps from previous thread carry over. I don’t get it.

Is there a ''put bass only in subs'' button? I think they actually have to do that deliberately so you're actually going to have to tell them to knock that chit off.

 

[Zbysek]

Please read my OP one more time. Please.

I don’t understand why that concept is so terribly complicated. But, apparently the idea is mainly an oppo for cats to post a bunch belligerent and irrelevant personal diatribe, perhaps from previous thread carry over. I don’t get it.

In your OP, you asked “is it just me?”. From the fact that others in this thread have different experience and different views, I would understand that: Yes, it is just you.

 

[ToneMonkey]

Unfortunately, bass is a widely misunderstood instrument. Many many many sound engineers just think of bass as booming bottom end, ala hip hop. Many many many sound engineers just can't wrap their brain around a bassist who plays with a lot midrange definition and a percussive style (the previous Rocco Prestia reference is a great example).

I should qualify my previous remarks by saying VENUE sound engineers. Obviously, any band that can afford it is gonna hire their own guy who understands that band's mix.

I've heard a ton of live shows ruined by a sound engineer who clearly did not understand how bass should sit in that band's mix. It's a real problem. And one that I don't think other instruments experience to the degree that bassists do.

 

[groooooove]

if the person paying me wants something specific, i'll do it/allow it... I really don't care.


that never really happens though...

it's always been up to me, though some sound guys take liberty, its never really been an issue for me.

 

[climber]

I want the sound engineer to make my bass sound out there just the way it sounds on stage. PERIOD! I've played for 52 years and I know what my rig sounds like.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

First, before the sound engineering folks jump in and tell me that the sound engineer has to deal with the whole mix and room acoustics etc etc, I already get all that. I’ve been gigging for 50 years now in all types of ensembles and venues; and believe me, I get it that the sound engineer has a lot of important concerns going on. This post / thread is NOT denigrating either that job or the folks who do it.

OTOH, as a practical matter, there is often insufficient time in various gigs to have the one on one time required for a mutual tonal product between the sound engineer and the individual musicians. So, irrespective of whatever bass signal is being sent to the board, what comes out of FOH is often the product of what the sound engineer thinks the bass should sound like. It just happens.

And while it is certainly true that there are venue / mix issues that factor in, it is equally true that there are individual tonal aspects that become convoluted. The worst kinds of cases for me as a bass player happen when the sound engineer thinks the bass should be completely sent to the subs. And believe me, it has happened to me. There are other aspects like compression etc, which may or may not be imposed based on any actual listening.

So, is it just me, or is there something missing from where the technology is going? Should the sound engineer have total decision in how the bass instrument should sound? I mean, if so, I guess all we really need is any old bass and a DI, and hope for the best. Or is there a middle ground, where we are just missing something that would simplify the communication of the instrument prefs to the sound engineer? I’d like to think that is a possibility. Because literally a lot of my ampless gigs are in the chuck it and chance it category.

I’m not a sound engineer by any stretch of the imagination , but on their behalf, they are hired to do a job. If they suck at it, they will be not be in business long. My advice here is don’t help them to be sucky. Let them do their job, which surprisingly is making the whole band sound good.

The best way to work with them is first and formost, treat them with respect. Most of the ones we hire bust their humps, and it’s a long day for them. The last thing they need is for somebody to become an aggrieved artist in a hissy fit.

The second thing is be early to the gig. You can exchange a lot of info when you help.

The third thing is, but the second most important thing, While the set up is happening, DO NOT play your bass at full concert volume until you are asked to do so. In fact, if you got to doodle, or warm up, bring a small practice amp and find a corner somewhere other than where you are performing.

What I find interesting is a fair amount of sound engineers are x-bass players, and that can be a plus or minus. I guess it’s because they are used to hauling big heavy stuff.

 

[Wasnex]

First, before the sound engineering folks jump in and tell me that the sound engineer has to deal with the whole mix and room acoustics etc etc, I already get all that. I’ve been gigging for 50 years now in all types of ensembles and venues; and believe me, I get it that the sound engineer has a lot of important concerns going on. This post / thread is NOT denigrating either that job or the folks who do it.

OTOH, as a practical matter, there is often insufficient time in various gigs to have the one on one time required for a mutual tonal product between the sound engineer and the individual musicians. So, irrespective of whatever bass signal is being sent to the board, what comes out of FOH is often the product of what the sound engineer thinks the bass should sound like. It just happens.

And while it is certainly true that there are venue / mix issues that factor in, it is equally true that there are individual tonal aspects that become convoluted. The worst kinds of cases for me as a bass player happen when the sound engineer thinks the bass should be completely sent to the subs. And believe me, it has happened to me. There are other aspects like compression etc, which may or may not be imposed based on any actual listening.

So, is it just me, or is there something missing from where the technology is going? Should the sound engineer have total decision in how the bass instrument should sound? I mean, if so, I guess all we really need is any old bass and a DI, and hope for the best. Or is there a middle ground, where we are just missing something that would simplify the communication of the instrument prefs to the sound engineer? I’d like to think that is a possibility. Because literally a lot of my ampless gigs are in the chuck it and chance it category.

If the band is paying the audio tech, they can tell him/her to mix a certain way. If the tech does not, then the band has the choice to fire the tech and hire someone else. If the tech mixes to the bands satisfaction and the hiring entity does not like it, the band may not get rehired. The band can certainly make the call, but there could be consequences.

If the tech is working for the house or some other entity (and the band is also working for that entity). Ultimately whoever hired the band and the tech is responsible and in control of the sound, but the tech usually functions as an authorized representative of the hiring entity. If the band does not like the mix, they don't have to work in the venue.

Ultimately the customer is who should make the call, but all too often bands assume the have the skill, knowledge, perspective to make the decision for the audience without any outside influence or consideration. IMHO the biggest factor that requires consideration of the patrons or audiences consideration is SPL and how bass heavy the mix is and it is unwise to assume the audience has the same expectations and taste as you.

Keep in mind that most musicians are actually service providers instead of artists. If you are a headlining artists that people are willing to pay big money to see, then you can get away with anything your target audience will accept and applaud. If they expect high SPLs and massive bass, you better bring it. Consider how many artists abandoned by their audience when they change artistic direction. You may think you have complete artistic freedom, but that may be an illusion if you want to continue pumping out hits.

I realize this probably is not the answer you expected or wanted, but it is reality IMHO.

Whether you are religious or not, there is wisdom in the serenity prayer.