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Double Bass Why are all uprights so freaking expensive?

Time to stop trolling; there is no great conspiracy theory. Build a double bass to completion- any double bass, cheap, expensive, carved, plywood, hell even a composite one, and then tell me how easy it is and how inexpensive it was.

With almost 8 billion people on the planet, if it was possible someone would be doing it. Third world materials and labor are not a sustainable way to value products in a developed market or build a long term business model.

Comparing a double bass to an EUB or slab is like comparing a chipmunk to a grapefruit.
 
The fallacy is in the assumption that all the additional new production will have the same quality as the low volume production. It's required to justify the argument. In a perfect world, no bass would ever need a setup either.

It's not an assumption, because you're missing hard cold facts about manufacturing and operations.

First, is economies of scale. You can buy 1000 fingerboards for a lot less than you can buy one or two. Second is specialization. If you recruit the right type of person for a set up position, you can train the guy by a master luthier. If he's setting up 8 of these a day, in two months he's done 320 setups and he's quite good at it on the two models the company produces. He learns to do it better, and fast, learning to keep tools he uses regularly close to him, dealing with the same set of problems regularly. Third is the learning curve. A company that makes 5000 uprights a year has lots of opportunities to get really good at it , particularly if they only make a couple models to simply production. With people eating, sleeping and drinking nothing but these two models, they can get the process down to a science. Throw quality improvement techniques in there, and supplier certification/quality programs it wouldn't surprise me if you could create some killer quality uprights.

I believe, that with experience, companies can produce good quality instruments at really cheap prices, even in the upright arena -- but only if they have the volume.

When I was building instruments a few years ago, I got rid of the fear of taking necks off instruments, uninstalling tuners, adjusting truss rods, retro-routing pickup cavities in a manufactured bass -- all the stuff that scares the average Joe like I was previously. I had a lot of basses of my own and took them apart for various reasons (like transporting them on a trip in my suitcase), and I saw the quality of mass produced basses -- good neck pockets, killer finishes, tight tuner installation, great pickups, good fretwork.

And the stuff that was greater quality in my own instruments didn't seem to matter much sonically. Example, my luthier/trainer showed me how to build a bolt on bass that had a neck joint so strong you can hold up the bass with the neck inserted into the pocket, parallel to the floor, and have the body stay in the neck even though the neck screws weren't installed. And this was with the body facing upward. The tightness of the fit held the neck in place, it was that precise. But did that matter sonically and functionally as long as the neck fit snugly in the pocket and had good screws? No! It makes great press for when you are trying to sell your boutique bass services, but functionally and sonically, it made no difference compared to m looser fitting neck pockets on other manufactured instruments in the $400 to $800 range -- basses that couldn't pass the test the luthier had me do on my own instruments I built.

Everyone carries on about high mass bridges as the be-all end all of tone and sustain (Badass bass bridges, for example). I know because I was on that plan and bought a pile of them. Then an engineer on Youtube did a test where he installed a low mass bridge on a bass, and then measured the length of the sustain using a meter. Then he installed a high mass bridge and did the same thing. The sustain was the same with either bridge.

So, I now consider brand loyalty and all the mystique about building as mere hype. Even George Harrison and Pat Metheny said its not the price, it's how they are set up and their native tone that matters. And you can get good tone with all kinds of different materials.

Even suppliers can be worked with to produce good quality. One trick I learned was to seek out suppliers that are small. Say they have an annual sales volume of $1 M per year. You come to them willing to commit 85% of your fingerboard volume with them over X years, increasing their sales by 50% per year. When you say jump, they will say "how high?" because you are their biggest customer and will work with you to get you the best stuff they can.

Again, I think prices are high for uprights due to the cost of shipping, and the perception that there is something mysterious about the construction. No one in that industry wants to pee in the pool. I think the rarity of 200 year old basses, and the tendency for basses to open up and sound better with time elevates the price of quality low-end basses. The prices of those older basses creates an anchor point for the lower prices upright basses, like a halo effect.
 
Pau, I have read your posts for a long while and I can appreciate that you are a band leader. You are a job creator, as they say, in many ways. You obviously take your business seriously and that's a great thing. You have my respect for putting people to work while running a business.

Thanks for the kudos, means a lot. I appreciate it.

The 'average Joe' as you put it, doesn't have the years of experience, skill, tools, and general know-how, etc. that is necessary to work on, (much less build?!), a double bass. Not even closely.

Sure, I can tighten the screws, turn the truss rods, and oil the fretboards on my slabs when the seasons change here in the midwest. They are designed that way for a reason and that's what anyone would consider minor maintenance at best.

Could you confidently shape and fit a bridge, dress a board, set a soundpost, seal some seams, (much less fix a neck break *egads!*), etc., on a bass fiddle and get anything but, if through even the blindest of luck, a passable result? I highly doubt it. Could you learn how, through trial and error, or schooling and years of training? Of course. Maybe, EVENTUALLY you could if you're cut out for that kind of work. But it ain't gonna' be easy. They don't call them craftsman for nothing.

It's a calling, Brother.
Not a price point.

I think you're confusing do it yourselfism with the focus of my comments -- large scale production of QUALITY instruments at a low price point. My comments are about how I believe manufacturers, if they wanted, could produce much lower priced instruments that have the quality of the $2000 instruments you have buy for good entry level use.

To your questions -- i agree with you. It would take a lot of time, frustration, and firewood-making to get the skills of a trained luthier. I know that because when I decided to build my own electrics, I eventually hired someone. This was because I made firewood for three months before giving up and getting someone professional to train me.

But see my post above about how economies of scale, and high volume can make someone really good at the stuff you mention above in a couple months. If someone specializes in setups, then in two months they could have set up hundreds of instruments, and get way good at it. So, I think quality is possible in high volume production environments, just like it is in one-off, artisan situations. But it takes narrowing the number of products, concentrating on improving production, investing in training, and having a team of experts who can guide the process.

So, let's not confuse doing it yourself, with quality focused manufacturing. I am talking about the latter.[/QUOTE]
 
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Time to stop trolling; there is no great conspiracy theory. Build a double bass to completion- any double bass, cheap, expensive, carved, plywood, hell even a composite one, and then tell me how easy it is and how inexpensive it was.

With almost 8 billion people on the planet, if it was possible someone would be doing it. Third world materials and labor are not a sustainable way to value products in a developed market or build a long term business model.

Comparing a double bass to an EUB or slab is like comparing a chipmunk to a grapefruit.

I ain't trollin James -- I honestly believe what I'm saying.

Your comment above about if it was possible, someone would be doing it is flawed. It is something that millionaires say PREVENTS people from taking risks and achieving business success. They quoted that exact phrase in an article I read about the difference between successful entrepreneurs and people who are not in that category.

If what you are saying is true, there would never be any new products. No iPhones, no iPads, no EUB's. IN fact, if you go back far enough in history, there wouldn't even be such thing as an upright bass since at one time in the earth's history since "no one was doing it". Any given time, products that will eventually rock the world don't exist because no one is doing it.

Anyway, the point is moot because I don't believe the volume is present for the scale needed for mass production of quality instruments to work. Maybe I'm wrong since I don't have data, but that's what intuition tells me. I also think the industry would work to punish anyone who tried the idea, although there are ways around that.
 
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Truer words were never spoken. There have been a lot of timbers harvested to extinction. A lot of people exploited over the past 200 years.

These are questions I think would need to be settled after a lot of research about places in the world that have the right supply of workers, access to the kind of lifestyle the professionals that may need to locate there would want, proximity to suppliers, stability of government -- a massive research project.

And I don't think the idea is a go anyway.
 
Pau,

I think you are actually saying two different things.

First you describe how a volume manufacturing process might look, and say "but double basses don't have the kind of potential volume, even with dramatically lower prices, that would support setting up such a process"

And then you say "the price is high because of mythology, tradition, and mystique".

Which is it?

My bet is on the inadequate volume to set up DB manufacture as a high quality repeatable manufacturing process.
 
These are questions I think would need to be settled after a lot of research about places in the world that have the right supply of workers, access to the kind of lifestyle the professionals that may need to locate there would want, proximity to suppliers, stability of government -- a massive research project.

...not just this...the right kind of tone wood doesn't just grow on trees (especially not trees that are harvested to extinction...case in point).
 
Pau,

I think you are actually saying two different things.

First you describe how a volume manufacturing process might look, and say "but double basses don't have the kind of potential volume, even with dramatically lower prices, that would support setting up such a process"

And then you say "the price is high because of mythology, tradition, and mystique".

Which is it?

My bet is on the inadequate volume to set up DB manufacture as a high quality repeatable manufacturing process.

I believe it's both. As I said, volume is an issue. But the Chinese have been able to make crappy basses for less than 1/3 the retail cost of a quality entry level bass, excluding shipping. So I'm not surprised if there's a lot of margin in the quality entry level basses due to the mystique factor. Margin that could be used to improve the quality and still make a profit at a lower price point.

Fact is neither of us know the standard costs of materials and labor etcetera in these environments. So as I said, much of this is conjecture from all of us.

In terms of the mystique factor, look at these Kydd basses -- yes, I get it -- they are not upright, but they are the most basic EUB's I've ever seen. In fact, their simplicity shores up the argument that perception is built into these basses that go vertical.

And look at the guy's price list!!

KYDD Basses

Gotta be more going on there than the cost of labor, materials and shipping!!! And this guy has kept the prices up there for at least a decade. Throw in all the mystique about the properties of acoustic instruments, a glue-on neck joint, how the tailpiece material influences tone (something that I think is pretty minimal really, and so does my URB luthier), and its a recipe for keeping prices high for mystique reasons in the URB field. I even saw a thread on Talkbass where people thought that whether there is a scroll on the headstock of the URB influenced tone!

People don't seem to understand these instruments very well, and lack of buyer knowledge is a factor that keeps prices high, says Michael Porter, this author I love, who writes on industry attractiveness and business strategy. I think that factor is alive and well in the domain of URB pricing.
 
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This is why uprights are so freaking expensive:





There are some makers like Shen who turn out good quality instruments at a reasonable price point from plywood to fully-carved. I had one and was impressed with it. However, my Schnitzer is so far above it in sound that it continues to amaze me. There are also those who buy in (usually) European-made bodies in the white with unattached necks and do the assembly in their shop. Assembly means at minimum attaching the neck (which could involve tweaking the neck joint to insure a perfect fit), gluing the FB, dressing the FB, fitting the soundpost, setting and carving the bridge, and varnishing the instrument. Sometimes, it means opening the bass and doing re-graduation on the top to insure optimum sound. This is all done by hand with hand tools. All of this takes a great deal of skill and experience, not to mention time.
 
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I mean, they're already saving money on the body,
it's basically just a neck, with pickups.

I remember the EUB4 going for 700, and I thought, lemme wait a bit.
THen it increased to 900.
Then 1200.
Now, 1500.

Really?
15 freaking hundred bucks, for a stick with strings on????

I mean, if Squire would make them, they would go for $300. You know that, right?

Go search evilbay right now for this:

Bass Fretless 4 String Walnut EUB Wishbass Piezo Pickup/preamp, Oil Finish

BIN 350.00

You're welcome.....:-)
 
Dude. Basses are not widgets. And even if you could simply toss wood onto an assembly line and CNC it into an instrument that was worth using a semi-sustainable resource to bring into being, who would you sell all these basses to?

School music programs? Hah!

Entry level bass players who want an instrument that will last 20 years, but don't want the price tag. People who know it's a crap shoot whether they are even going to make it through the early learning period, when your body rejects the instrument. People on budgets who want to get into upright. School programs as you suggest.

But as I said, I'm not convinced there's enough volume to make it a worthwhile investment. Maybe if they were easier to get into (and out of) demand would take off. Seems most people prefer violin or cello or electric bass. I go into a stringed instrument shop and they have walls of violins, and maybe 4 or 5 uprights.
 
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Sounds like mystique to me.

Is that bad? If we're going to take things on faith––as economists are always really asking us to do, regardless of the "facts" (been waiting 40 years for all that money that's been funneling up to the 1% to "trickle back down" to me)––I'd rather take mystique, thank you (happy to pay extra for it).