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Double Bass Why are all uprights so freaking expensive?

Is that bad? If we're going to take things on faith––as economists are always really asking us to do, regardless of the "facts" (been waiting 40 years for all that money that's been funneling up to the 1% to "trickle back down" to me)––I'd rather take mystique, thank you (happy to pay extra for it).

That's your choice. And it seems to support the idea that prices do go up when people think there are mystical qualities that can only be detected based on price, brand name etcetera.

For me, I've been surprised at how things I thought were so mystical were actually quite simple with the right teacher helping me see. Like they say at the home depot "It's easy if you know how".
 
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Sounds like you don't really know anything about double basses and aren't interested in learning.

Never said that. IN fact, when I was looking for a bass, I asked here why Cheap Chinese Basses were not the way to go. People told me they imploded and broke, but couldn't tell me why -- so I still didn't know how to spot a good bass when it is new. It was when I met with a senior luthier at our stringed instrument store that I got answers. Hard, factual answers that convinced me what to look for.


The fact is, I simply disagree with you.
 
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But as I said, I'm not convinced there's enough volume to make it a worthwhile investment.

Fact is neither of us know the standard costs of materials and labor etcetera in these environments. So as I said, much of this is conjecture from all of us.

There's the rub. We don't know. There are a lot of things we don't know. Not knowing means we don't have a business plan. I've been involved in manufacturing for 20+ years. There are no silver bullet solutions to the problems of quality or cost in manufacturing, when you're dealing with small production volumes.

People don't seem to understand these instruments very well, and lack of buyer knowledge is a factor that keeps prices high, says Michael Porter, this author I love, who writes on industry attractiveness and business strategy. I think that factor is alive and well in the domain of URB pricing.

We don't know. I agree from my own experience that lack of buyer knowledge is a problem. This is the nature of the instrument itself. We simply do not have an objective measure of the quality of a bass, either in terms of musical quality or reliability. The mystique is the result of our ignorance, not the cause. When I was shopping for my new bass a few years ago, I'd have loved to have known with confidence whether A or B was a better bass. At some point I just had to trust my hands, ears, and instincts.
 
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Once again, reluctantly dragged into this threat... IMO, the first thing that needs to be accurately determined is: how many new upright acoustic basses are sold each year. I'd be very surprised if that number is over 1,000, worldwide, global, every possible avenue. If that's true, then economies of scale don't apply and we're still at the one-off, one-bass "mystique". Ignorance and refusal to believe is what? My view is true? Care to make up more facts?
 
I mean, they're already saving money on the body,
it's basically just a neck, with pickups.

I remember the EUB4 going for 700, and I thought, lemme wait a bit.
THen it increased to 900.
Then 1200.
Now, 1500.

Really?
15 freaking hundred bucks, for a stick with strings on????

I mean, if Squire would make them, they would go for $300. You know that, right?

My vote is the OP is a troll...

... any internet search turns up EUBs at plenty of price points. YGWYPF
 
It's not an assumption, because you're missing hard cold facts about manufacturing and operations.

First, is economies of scale. You can buy 1000 fingerboards for a lot less than you can buy one or two. Second is specialization. If you recruit the right type of person for a set up position, you can train the guy by a master luthier. If he's setting up 8 of these a day, in two months he's done 320 setups and he's quite good at it on the two models the company produces. He learns to do it better, and fast, learning to keep tools he uses regularly close to him, dealing with the same set of problems regularly. Third is the learning curve. A company that makes 5000 uprights a year has lots of opportunities to get really good at it , particularly if they only make a couple models to simply production. With people eating, sleeping and drinking nothing but these two models, they can get the process down to a science. Throw quality improvement techniques in there, and supplier certification/quality programs it wouldn't surprise me if you could create some killer quality uprights.

I believe, that with experience, companies can produce good quality instruments at really cheap prices, even in the upright arena -- but only if they have the volume.

When I was building instruments a few years ago, I got rid of the fear of taking necks off instruments, uninstalling tuners, adjusting truss rods, retro-routing pickup cavities in a manufactured bass -- all the stuff that scares the average Joe like I was previously. I had a lot of basses of my own and took them apart for various reasons (like transporting them on a trip in my suitcase), and I saw the quality of mass produced basses -- good neck pockets, killer finishes, tight tuner installation, great pickups, good fretwork.

And the stuff that was greater quality in my own instruments didn't seem to matter much sonically. Example, my luthier/trainer showed me how to build a bolt on bass that had a neck joint so strong you can hold up the bass with the neck inserted into the pocket, parallel to the floor, and have the body stay in the neck even though the neck screws weren't installed. And this was with the body facing upward. The tightness of the fit held the neck in place, it was that precise. But did that matter sonically and functionally as long as the neck fit snugly in the pocket and had good screws? No! It makes great press for when you are trying to sell your boutique bass services, but functionally and sonically, it made no difference compared to m looser fitting neck pockets on other manufactured instruments in the $400 to $800 range -- basses that couldn't pass the test the luthier had me do on my own instruments I built.

Everyone carries on about high mass bridges as the be-all end all of tone and sustain (Badass bass bridges, for example). I know because I was on that plan and bought a pile of them. Then an engineer on Youtube did a test where he installed a low mass bridge on a bass, and then measured the length of the sustain using a meter. Then he installed a high mass bridge and did the same thing. The sustain was the same with either bridge.

So, I now consider brand loyalty and all the mystique about building as mere hype. Even George Harrison and Pat Metheny said its not the price, it's how they are set up and their native tone that matters. And you can get good tone with all kinds of different materials.

Even suppliers can be worked with to produce good quality. One trick I learned was to seek out suppliers that are small. Say they have an annual sales volume of $1 M per year. You come to them willing to commit 85% of your fingerboard volume with them over X years, increasing their sales by 50% per year. When you say jump, they will say "how high?" because you are their biggest customer and will work with you to get you the best stuff they can.

Again, I think prices are high for uprights due to the cost of shipping, and the perception that there is something mysterious about the construction. No one in that industry wants to pee in the pool. I think the rarity of 200 year old basses, and the tendency for basses to open up and sound better with time elevates the price of quality low-end basses. The prices of those older basses creates an anchor point for the lower prices upright basses, like a halo effect.

It's no mystery, it's acoustics.

Actually, I write from manufacturing experience, and observing & fixing business practice failures. ;)

When you're bottling Coca Cola, building PC boards, solid body guitars, automobiles, and the like, the process is relatively easily quantified and scaled up with the associated benefits.

This is not so easy with things like artisan-based processes, despite decades of attempts to quantify these and make them repeatable. Fit and finish alone do not convey excellent tone to an instrument; they convey uniformity. What's often accepted is producing larger numbers of relatively mediocre but consistent product in return for reduced retail price and greater market acceptance (and income). That's not to say a good setup by an experienced luthier doesn't make these instruments sound and play well. There are many testimonials to that here. However, that's only part of the process that's being skipped or altered in mass production. You don't need to play a 200 year old DB to hear the difference. You could play a brand new Krutz (actually built by Anton Krutz) or other quality luthier-built bass.
 
The economies of scale argument sounds like a great model to invest several million dollars of production startup costs so that two decades from now I can be making several thousand dollars a year once I capture the entire global market.

Q: What does a double bass luthier do when they win the lottery???
A: Keep building more basses until they run out of money....
 
The economies of scale argument sounds like a great model to invest several million dollars of production startup costs so that two decades from now I can be making several thousand dollars a year once I capture the entire global market.

Q: What does a double bass luthier do when they win the lottery???
A: Keep building more basses until they run out of money....

Yep -- if there is one thing everyone seems to agree upon in this thread, it's that there likely isn't the volume to get economies of scale and the learning curve working for the low cost, quality producer. And when you consider that volume is split among several different upright bass manufacturers who compete in that industry, the volume for a single firm would be even less.

I'd steer clear of that business "opportunity" like the plague.
 
I mean, they're already saving money on the body,
it's basically just a neck, with pickups.

I remember the EUB4 going for 700, and I thought, lemme wait a bit.
THen it increased to 900.
Then 1200.
Now, 1500.

Really?
15 freaking hundred bucks, for a stick with strings on????

You really should change the topic title since you are talking about EUB's only. Otherwise this topic get spoiled. Is that possible? This topic is not about uprights but about electric uprights!

You have a good point though and I wander the same thing myself about why most EUB's are so expensive. Most quality ones go well over 2500$.
 
You really should change the topic title since you are talking about EUB's only. Otherwise this topic get spoiled. Is that possible? This topic is not about uprights but about electric uprights!

You have a good point though and I wander the same thing myself about why most EUB's are so expensive. Most quality ones go well over 2500$.

No, I was talking about upright basses. Someone then morphed the convo into EUB's....my comments were focused on Acoustic Upright Basses...people who had followed the thread from the top even posted videos about the complexities of making uprights....acoustic uprights are the topic...
 
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EUBs are small subset of a very small market. There are cheap mass produced EUBs like the Stagg, but they even less like a DB then a good EUB. Look how many DB players here don't like EUBs. There are really only a few of reasons to need an EUB. Transportation space and stage space are the main two. For me, the stage space is the main reason for owning and gigging with my EUB. My band is hired to play on a busy sidewalk in front of a store every weekend. Shopping carts, strollers, wheel chairs, people carrying their purchases, you name it goes by. Add to that, we never know how much space the store is going to have for us. They sell all sorts of goodies right on the sidewalk. They are good about moving stuff a bit so we can fit, but often that still means playing quite close to one another. I can keep my EUB out of harms way and tuck in close like I could never do with my DB. With transportation space I can fit my DB and all the band gear and a total of four people in the car but that means one of teens is stuck sitting in the middle seat. That happens more often then they like locally but we play out state and again I take the EUB. Several hours in the middle seat is no fun. So you can see that to make up for the lack of sales, the prices must be higher.