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Why are band dynamics so delicate?

#61
LOL - you just ran into the "shut up and play what I tell you to" brand of band mate. Bass players are not supposed to be educated. We are not supposed to have ideas or offer input. /s BTW.

Erasing your part without telling you is indeed a red flag. OF course you could always put your part back and see what happens, but I think you have a guitar player's ego problem on your hands.
 
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#62
IMO: A band leader / someone who calls the final shot is a must. A band leader must have the guts to call the shots, but also the wisdom to know when to let the band have input and listen to their mates.

- Complete democracy / homogenious input from everyone = too many chefs in the kitchen = nobody is happy.
- Dictator = only one person is happy.

I've been in a band where the "leader" had no spine. Everything turned into a total democracy. Arguments about tempos, gigs, guitar tone, set lists, you name it... Me being the most experienced person in the band couldn't put up with it anymore, so I quit. I once joined a band where the "leader" was a dictator. I soon found out that the band had filtered through dozens of musicians in just a few years. By the time I was ready to quit, the entire band was fed up and the whole thing exploded.

There's a reason why the majority of bands/projects with big aspirations seldom gain any real traction. Not only do you need to be making the right music at the right time and for the right audience, but the members of the band need to be getting along and following the band leader in whatever capacity they have set-up.
 
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#64
Tazziedevil said:
In my experience most bands aren't a fully collaborative melding of the minds and everyone sitting in a circle getting excited about their parts. Every band; whether it's explicit or not has a leader and a main creative force. Usually songs come 90% or more finished by the writer, there's just a few things that need done from the band.

If you get along personally and musically with the guitarist, you either need to realise what the role is like in the band, or work out some sort of "On the songs you write, I'll play what you ask. On the songs I write, You play what I ask" nad it becomes parallell collaboration.

If neither option sounds good, you should probably look at finding someone who you get along with beter,
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My experience has been the antithesis of this as I have been part of the same trio for 20 years now, and while each of us do bring songs to the table lots of songs have come about just by jamming, and with our individual songs - they are open to interpretation when we start rehearsing them and we all just have a thick skin when it comes to being open to each others notes (that we all listen to different music often means that we offer up different perspectives for each other that we might not have thought about on our own). It does take a thick skin though, and there are always going to be times when you don't see eye to eye (important thing in that moment is to step back and come back to it later).

Mind you - I have seen plenty of examples of the band dynamics that you speak of and it always baffles me a little that people can take everything so seriously and personally. Life is to short to get bogged down in situations like that - find like minded people and get on the same page, be open even if it is awkward and approach every creative endeavour pragmatically as you never know what someone else might contribute.
 
#65
stoggin said:
band dynamics
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Ah... the human beings.

Really I don't understand why players do it or how they can stand it. It has been many years since I tried. I neither miss it nor can believe that I used to play in bands, even for pay.

Nowadays this is my band. There are no interpersonal dynamics, collaborators, leader, or followers. No-one is ever late, stoned, egotistical, argumentative, needy, or inattentive (although occasionally I neglect to eat or drink for about eight hours). The music is all post-song and is largely post-genre. Easy.

1.jpg
 
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#66
Snaxster said:
Ah... the human beings.

Really I don't understand why players do it or how they can stand it. It has been many years since I tried. I neither miss it nor can believe that I used to play in bands, even for pay.

Nowadays this is my band. There are no interpersonal dynamics, collaborators, leader, or followers. No-one is ever late, stoned, egotistical, argumentative, needy, or inattentive (although occasionally I neglect to eat or drink for about eight hours). The music is all post-song and is largely post-genre. Easy.

View attachment 4075055
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I can't tell if you're being snarky or serious...
 
#68
Snaxster said:
Ah... the human beings.

Really I don't understand why players do it or how they can stand it. It has been many years since I tried. I neither miss it nor can believe that I used to play in bands, even for pay.

Nowadays this is my band. There are no interpersonal dynamics, collaborators, leader, or followers. No-one is ever late, stoned, egotistical, argumentative, needy, or inattentive (although occasionally I neglect to eat or drink for about eight hours). The music is all post-song and is largely post-genre. Easy.

View attachment 4075055
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This is easily the best post in the history of the band management forum.

It's probably in the top 10 of talkbass all time.
 
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#69
Oddly said:
I have to ask...have you actually talked to the other guy about this?

Almost all posts I read about band dynamics seem to boil down to a lack of communication... sometimes that's on one person, sometimes it's on everyone.
Too often, assumptions get made, and that leads to trouble.
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This +1000.

All types of relationships (and I mean all types) require a level communication to be successful. Some more than others but still you need to communicate.

First, (and any of you who've seen the norms of collaboration will cringe when I write this) presume positive intentions. Go in with the idea he didn't do this to be an arse. Second, ask kindly and politely what the reasoning was for the percieved slight. Third, and perhaps more important, ask without assigning blame.

The ensuing discussion will, hopefully, help your working relationship. If your or your partner degenerate into assigning blame, or you find serious creative differences, it will tell you the relationship is over. If not, you have a chance of salvaging it.

Best of luck either way.
 
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#70
It comes down to trust and you've found someone you can't trust. ... Had they said, "Can you change the bass?" then you'd deal with that but, this is different. ... Sounds like, if we understand this situation as you explained it, they decided they're in charge and what you want doesn't matter. ... They sure sound like a guitar player. ... If it bothers you this much you should stand aside and look for something else because there's little chance, if you stick around, this person/situation, will not change and only get worse.
 
#72
Band dynamics are to be considered and addressed. I am the BL, bassist and singer of my band. I own the PA, some lights and do all the booking...AND get an even cut of the band gig wages.

Song selection is suggested and, if agreed upon, learned and put in rotation on our setlist. Band member availability for rehearsals and gigs is discussed and worked around. BTW, we are in our 50's and 60's...no time for BS, Drama, Posers or significant other interference. Just play the music and enjoy ourselves!!
 
#73
Sounds like singer-guitarist is going solo. The only problem is that he forgot to tell you.

If you're not comfortable with being "just" a sideman, leave.

And remember, even pros get their lines erased once in a while. Tony Levin had his whole bassline removed on Peter Gabriel's "Big Time" and replaced with synth (except for that little funk-fingered part).
 
#76
Have you heard of the Dunning-Krueger effect? I run into it a ton in my business. It basically says that the dumber one is, the dumber one thinks others are. Therefore, the dumbest person in the room talks down to those who are more intelligent. Sort of like, when you’re really stupid, how much smarter do you have to get to realize just how stupid you are?

put that in a room with multiple defective personalities, prima donnas, preening egos, etc. and you have a ripe situation for conflict...

oh, not to say musicians are dumb or have ego issues, I’m just sayin’...
 
#78
stoggin said:
Hey all. Want to get your thoughts. Not sure if it’s the right place in the forums but here goes. So for a few years I’ve been writing and recording songs at home with a guitarist, me supplying the bass lines....

cue last year: finally get a drummer. Guitarist is singing which is great. Then over time rather than collaborating, which is the main reason I play, the songs are coming in basically structured, chords etc. Any ideas generally get ignored or if changes are made the song is casually dropped. Last thing that happened was that we continued to write via digital channels. All good until a song came back and my bass was erased:) is it wrong for me to feel slighted? The guitarist is a really good friend but he’s never been in a band before and I guess doesn’t get how important band dynamics can be. Or do I just have my head up my ass?
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Why are band dynamics so delicate?

Because if the band is very active, it's like being married to multiple people.
 
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#80
bholder said:
I decided I won't be part of any band with a "leader" and "side men". Full equal collaboration or bye-bye.
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I'm guessing a lot of paying gigs are not in your future, then.

If you want to get things done, you need someone in charge. If you want to hang out and noodle around with ideas, the all-collaborative approach is fine. The best musicians I've played with (and some of them have been pretty spectacular) were perfectly happy to come in, sit down, and play the music the way the leader wanted it, get paid, and go home. Although at my level I can't say like one of my mentors "the instrument doesn't come out of the case till I see money", I appreciate the attitude.

News flash: 99.999% of the music you love, of whatever genre, was created by an organization with a "band leader" and "side men". And in most cases it was recorded by studio cats whose livelihood depended on coming in, sitting down, playing the parts, getting paid, and going home. You don't really think that all those complex licks and bass lines and song forms and arrangements were arrived at by consensus amongst all the band members, do you? Nope, one guy said "here's how it goes" and the others learned their parts.
 
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