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Why are standalone preamplifiers a dying breed?
- Thread starter pablomigraine
- Start date
It's hard to discuss wattage and volume needs based on only one's personal needs. I'm one that has never reached the limit of a good quality 500 watt amp into a good quality 4ohm 410. However, I have a reasonable tight tone, and don't go for big low end extension or 'piano type tone'. Those that are into that sort of 'backline as a small PA system' can really use some watts, even when not playing particularly loud, since the deep low end can benefit from quite a bit of power.Regarding your original post, I agree with most above... all in one amps have gotten so good that it is hard to justify 3 or 4 rack spaces and all the hassle of finding a pre that optimally powers a PA type amp for most. I can still see some wanting/needing them, but the sad situation of marketing and production is that a company needs to sell a bit of volume to make it worth their while to produce a preamp. There will always be some out there, but IMO not many, and fewer and fewer offerings each year.
IMO!
for example.... I used to have a cheap receiver with 50w per channel for my stereo system. I have now upgraded to an NAD 150w per channel power amp. I dont play any louder than i used to but the whole system sounds better now regardless of volume.
Like I stated earlier, the technical difference of volume between a 500w head and 1000w head is about 3db which is the lowest difference noticable by most human ears. Its the quality of sound, not volume. So if youd be fired for running 500watts you should probably just quit because its obvious that whoever you play with has no clue about sound.
Like I stated earlier, the technical difference of volume between a 500w head and 1000w head is about 3db which is the lowest difference noticable by most human ears. Its the quality of sound, not volume. So if youd be fired for running 500watts you should probably just quit because its obvious that whoever you play with has no clue about sound.
1000 watts ain't nuthin' in this day and age. I'm hard-pressed to think of any modestly powered / priced amps that aren't capable of pushing ~1400+ watts bridged mono @ 4 ohms. Doesn't mean you have to use it, though. Given the aforementioned specs, two Acme cabs are getting 750 watts each....not that extraordinary IMO.
Another added benefit is they can double-duty if necessary to run monitors, supplement FOH, etc.
Riis
I can run any head I want. If I turned it up to where it's putting out its full clean volume consistently, I would get canned on the spot.
I'll reserve judgment on cabs like Acmes when I play them. Maybe they need a little more power than a regular cab to get the same levels, but I can tell you without the benefit of playing one that it isn't 1000w worth. Everyone's too damn loud, and everybody needs to turn the hell down!
I'll reserve judgment on cabs like Acmes when I play them. Maybe they need a little more power than a regular cab to get the same levels, but I can tell you without the benefit of playing one that it isn't 1000w worth. Everyone's too damn loud, and everybody needs to turn the hell down!
I agree with the first part of your statement but I definentaly do not agree with the second part you have no right to judge anybody without knowing there situation.
I can run any head I want. If I turned it up to where it's putting out its full clean volume consistently, I would get canned on the spot.
I'll reserve judgment on cabs like Acmes when I play them. Maybe they need a little more power than a regular cab to get the same levels, but I can tell you without the benefit of playing one that it isn't 1000w worth. Everyone's too damn loud, and everybody needs to turn the hell down!
No offense, but you are stilling confusing wattage level with 'volume'.
As a few others have stated above, and as has been stated in a zillion threads, going from 300 to 600 watts will have MUCH more of an impact on quality of tone (especially in the low end, and especially with a lower SPL cab) than it will on volume.
Again, it is impossible to dictate other players' wattage needs without knowing tone goals, cab SPL, technique, etc.
Also, it is just as easy to play at a low volume level with 800 watts as it is with 200. That's what the master is for!
I can just see this turning into a "Watts is Watts" cage-match thread.....
Yes, I use a lot of power.... I run two big cabs at volumes many players would consider insane.... I'm a touring rock / metal bassist. Everything I own is racked.
Seriously kids.... if you're a coffee house / bar player and the loudest thing you've every needed was a Markbass LM and 210... you cant really comment objectively here...
I'm looking after the opinions of people who've used separates and like it, or use them out of neccesity....
It isnt just a matter of watts. Yes, PA amps sound MUCH better than the power sections of MOST integrated heads... and a good preamp with a good power amp almost always sounds better and gets louder than an integrated head for less money.. but thats only part of the argument...
What about compatibility / flexibility? Running one 410 on Monday night and 3 810's on Friday night. What about being able to switch up your sound completely and still have your same power section? I can take my 4 rackspace "mini" rig and run one side of it to power a 210 at a small club gig, and I can also run 4 410s at the water street music hall...
I'm also not buying the weight argument. An SVP-Pro and a QSC PLX still weighs a heck of a lot less than and Ampeg SVT 4Pro, and my Eden Navigator + Carvin DCM still weighs less and has more features than any integrated head available for less than $1800.
and so on.
Its dinner time. I leave Mr. Jung to speak as my representative in the interim.
Yes, I use a lot of power.... I run two big cabs at volumes many players would consider insane.... I'm a touring rock / metal bassist. Everything I own is racked.
Seriously kids.... if you're a coffee house / bar player and the loudest thing you've every needed was a Markbass LM and 210... you cant really comment objectively here...
I'm looking after the opinions of people who've used separates and like it, or use them out of neccesity....
It isnt just a matter of watts. Yes, PA amps sound MUCH better than the power sections of MOST integrated heads... and a good preamp with a good power amp almost always sounds better and gets louder than an integrated head for less money.. but thats only part of the argument...
What about compatibility / flexibility? Running one 410 on Monday night and 3 810's on Friday night. What about being able to switch up your sound completely and still have your same power section? I can take my 4 rackspace "mini" rig and run one side of it to power a 210 at a small club gig, and I can also run 4 410s at the water street music hall...
I'm also not buying the weight argument. An SVP-Pro and a QSC PLX still weighs a heck of a lot less than and Ampeg SVT 4Pro, and my Eden Navigator + Carvin DCM still weighs less and has more features than any integrated head available for less than $1800.
and so on.
Its dinner time. I leave Mr. Jung to speak as my representative in the interim.
I use both pre-amp / power amp but it stay fix at church. No moving it around. That why I own a combo rig to gig out.
Actually, Acme's aren't all that loud when compared to other 4 X 10 cabs. I've seen more than a handful of complaints from Acme owners who've creased cones in the quest for higher volumes. Bottom line: accurate reproduction of low frequencies requires more power irrespective of what volume levels are necessary. A 1000 watts may be a tad much given our gig schedule (Moose Lodges, Elks, etc.) but here's the kicker....
I traded off a small Yorkville combo for a QSC PLX 3102. She does 3100 watts / bridged mono / 4 ohms and is racked in my back-up rig. Works like a charm and I can use it to jump-start my pickup truck at 1:00 AM.
Riis
I traded off a small Yorkville combo for a QSC PLX 3102. She does 3100 watts / bridged mono / 4 ohms and is racked in my back-up rig. Works like a charm and I can use it to jump-start my pickup truck at 1:00 AM.
Riis
Back to the OP's topic.
I really have enjoyed the Amp/Preamp setup in my never ending quest for my sound and when I need to get a little loud my DCM-1500 and whatever Preamp it is that I own this week that is my rig,but If Im doing something inside or a small type get together then I go with my Shuttle 6.0 and GB T212 vertical.
I have not joined the ranks of the full on stage with full house/PA support so I must fend for myself "for now".
I voted that there are plenty of standalone's because Im pretty sure that I have worn out that rack space in my rig
,but I can see that it appears that the seperates thing is a slowly dying breed.
I really have enjoyed the Amp/Preamp setup in my never ending quest for my sound and when I need to get a little loud my DCM-1500 and whatever Preamp it is that I own this week that is my rig,but If Im doing something inside or a small type get together then I go with my Shuttle 6.0 and GB T212 vertical.
I have not joined the ranks of the full on stage with full house/PA support so I must fend for myself "for now".
I voted that there are plenty of standalone's because Im pretty sure that I have worn out that rack space in my rig
,but I can see that it appears that the seperates thing is a slowly dying breed.Fuzz, I was simply matching the randomness of his "id be fired" statement. Not judging without knowing his situation. He clearly stated his situation.
I'm surprised (and pleased) by the number of different high-quality offerings there have been in the past. (And the present when you're willing to buy used. 
) I'm thinking maybe the field got a little over-crowded? If so, a correction would be inevitable.
And of course there's the trend arc, and new stuff changes the game. IIRC the pre+power setup used to be the most viable and popular way to *save* weight! Well the micro-heads certainly put the kibosh on that!
) I'm thinking maybe the field got a little over-crowded? If so, a correction would be inevitable.And of course there's the trend arc, and new stuff changes the game. IIRC the pre+power setup used to be the most viable and popular way to *save* weight! Well the micro-heads certainly put the kibosh on that!
There are definitely more pre options now than ever. I'm lusting after the Mike Pope MPP-2. In terms of channel strips, the Great River MP-1NV and EQ-1NV seem like the ultimate combo. I guess I'm looking for more manufacturers to take a channel strip approach to dedicated bass pres.
I don't play very loud, but I find it hard to find a clean integrated amp with enough headroom. Used PA power amps are cheap compared to a lot of heads.
I don't play very loud, but I find it hard to find a clean integrated amp with enough headroom. Used PA power amps are cheap compared to a lot of heads.
I have a buddy runs 5 Ampeg 810's... 2 SVP-Pro's, 1 SVP-BSP, 3 power amps and a total 4,200 Crest watts.
+1
+1
I have been on a off the wall hand wired preamp quest and I have really like the sound of a LowEnd Preamp that I purchased and cant wait to recieve a SAMamp that I purchased last week.
I have owned quite a few of the mass produced pre's and the one I still own is the Ampeg SVP-Pro but I just love the sound of the handwired no boards LowEnd the most so far.
I have been tempted by a Aguilar 680 but havent stepped over the $500 line for a used pre yet.
I have owned quite a few of the mass produced pre's and the one I still own is the Ampeg SVP-Pro but I just love the sound of the handwired no boards LowEnd the most so far.
I have been tempted by a Aguilar 680 but havent stepped over the $500 line for a used pre yet.
OK, so watts don't always equal volume. But for the most part, watts equal volume, so let's not nitpick it to death again.
I refuse to believe that a 300w amp that isn't anywhere near clipping isn't going to sound any better than a 500w or 1000w amp at the same volume. Watts are cheap, of course, so it's cool to have them if you want them, but come on...as long as you're not clipping, a high end low power amp designed to sound the same as a high end high power amp isn't going to sound any better. This was all explained to me last week by the power amp guys on here. Same with this hoo-ha about running an amp into an 8 ohm load vs a 4 ohm. The only way it would sound any better is because of clipping at higher volumes. At my volumes it sounds the same.
So while, yes, watts don't always equal volume, they have a lot to do with it.
I suspect the reduced quantity is thanks to the combination of so many players seeking feather weight equipment and the stinking economy.
Frankly, the weight thing annoys me. Think about it, a QSC PLX series amp is under 20 pounds, a decent preamp less than 5 and a rack bag is only a couple pounds. And it would sound killer and be bombproof.
In my own tone quest, I learned just how important preamps are. The tone differences between the preamps I tried was very helpful in me finding my tone. I came to realize I dig a solid state console preamp kind of tone. By swapping preamps, I was able to learn that. It helps to only mess with one variable.
Frankly, the weight thing annoys me. Think about it, a QSC PLX series amp is under 20 pounds, a decent preamp less than 5 and a rack bag is only a couple pounds. And it would sound killer and be bombproof.
In my own tone quest, I learned just how important preamps are. The tone differences between the preamps I tried was very helpful in me finding my tone. I came to realize I dig a solid state console preamp kind of tone. By swapping preamps, I was able to learn that. It helps to only mess with one variable.
