Why bother owning an amp

[bdplaid]

Bass frequencies pervade the stage area and get into the microphones. Sound engineers are increasingly getting rid of the bass cabinet on stage, because the bleed from the bass cabinet into microphones on stage makes the FOH mix more difficult.

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Oh please, any of us who've done sound know this is BS. Drums, guitars and especially cymbals, aka higher frequency sounds, get picked up the most. The problem with bass is that low freq is omnidirectional and the large waves come off the stage like gangbusters. But...

but running the bass back thru wedges is just taking away control from the artist.

Bass sound pointed rearward on stage is a huge problem for FOH and especially singing bassists. The sound is more of a mid-range, which, being aimed rearward, bounces all over the stage and DOES in fact get into vocal mics.

The other problem for singing bassists (ask me how I know this) is that having bass coming from the same point source as your vocal is guaranteed to ensure you can't hear your voice as well as you need to.

 

[bassburner]

I think a big disconnect in this discussion is that there is a difference between an actual FOH engineer and "the guy at the venue that knows the most about using the mixer." The second group is probably the one where most of these problems come from and the reason why you shouldn't rely on an amp-less setup. If I've had problems with a real FOH guy (from the stage perspective), it was because the coked-up owner over-booked 4 opening bands to play within a 90 minute time span leaving a stressed out engineer.

And this is coming from "the guy in the band that knows the most about using the mixer" when we play places where we have to bring the PA.

 

[Remoman]

As someone who has worked doing live sound reinforcement, the sound guy works for you, not the other way around. He's there to augment your sound to fill the house, and should be taking your rig & setup however you like to perform and work with it.

 

[bdplaid]

I think a big disconnect in this discussion is that there is a difference between an actual FOH engineer and "the guy at the venue that knows the most about using the mixer." The second group is probably the one where most of these problems come from and the reason why you shouldn't rely on an amp-less setup. If I've had problems with a real FOH guy (from the stage perspective), it was because the coked-up owner over-booked 4 opening bands to play within a 90 minute time span leaving a stressed out engineer.

And this is coming from "the guy in the band that knows the most about using the mixer" when we play places where we have to bring the PA.

Lots of truth here. At pro gigs i ask to be miced and it is done.

 

[Manticore]

I'm a proponent of leaving the amp at home whenever possible. Personally, I've found it far easier to get a better sound on stage without an amp. Further, other members of whatever band I'm playing in seem to prefer not having a bass amp on stage, but none have ever asked me to forego using an amp. Finally, based upon the reaction I've received from many engineers, the sound guys seem prefer not having a bass amp on stage. Making those guys smile is frequently the shortest road to getting the best sound possible on stage.

I also own a moderate-sized PA and I'm occasionally asked to provide it for a gig. In such occasions I'm confident the PA is capable of capturing and reproducing a great bass sound without the use of a dedicated bass rig on stage. I get my mix through either wedges or IEMs depending upon the set up.

That said, I've not run into a situation where the sound company disallows the use of an amp on stage. They may prefer it, and might express that preference, but I've not been asked or told it isn't going to happen. If you work with them they should be able to get a decent sound both on stage and in the house. Most sound reinforcement engineers I've worked with are as concerned about doing their job to the best of their ability as the musicians with whom I'm playing. The key, however, is you need to figure out a way to work with them that works for you. Of course, you'll run into the occasional "training day" with engineers, but my personal experience has been such occasions are quite rare.

At the end, however, there is nothing quite so satisfying as strapping on a big rig and riding the thunder-so don't sell that amp! The key is flexibility. You are working with a group of individuals to put together a cohesive presentation. Each must do their part to contribute to the whole, and that may include a concession on the part of one or more individuals, including you.

 

[s0c9]

I spent my whole career in p.a./lighting and have done FOH for lots of touring/ major label acts. I ALWAYS worked for the artist. ALWAYS!! If the bass player wanted x-d.i., and x-mic, and wanted his amp in the men's room HE GOT IT.
I'm not sure who you worked for, but where I worked the artist was God. There was a matter of mutual trust, where the artist counted on our judgement, but in the end, he ruled on every aspect of the show.
Levon Helm left out drum mic brands on the tech rider. He didn't like what I spec'd. It wasn't him that drove 90 miles round trip to replace the mics.

I guessed you missed the part of my post where I said "unless you are a "touring" band with your own sound guy." which I "assumed" would be clear enough to imply "touring/label" acts.
I've done plenty gigs over the years for those types where we provided SR and they brought their own FOH "guy" - everyone from Steppenwolf to the Byrds, to Grover Washington Jr..
In that scenario, of course we bent over backwards for the artist. There's a reputation to maintain.
But those guys are very different from the festival, regional and local guys which (I believe) is the large majority of folks on TB.
As I also stated. YMMV

 

[Pbassmanca]

The singer runs her acoustic through the pa as well, both guitarists use 50 watt tube amps mic'd. It was the sound guy who said to do the bass through the pa, not the band. I'm not used to having front of house support so I have no idea how things are normally done but I love the tone out of my amp, why would they not Mic the bass too?

This sounds kind of dumb. The sound guy insist on you not using an amp on stage, and relying on hearing yourself through "monitors", (something I hate doing for bass by the way), and yet the band has TWO guitarists playing through 50 watt tube amps mic'd on stage. Some sound guys are ridiculous.

 

[Medicine Man]

I'd be perfectly happy to run direct if them other guys left their marshall/mesa/orange/whatever at home or at least didn't run the tubes at cold war volumes.

 

[JimmyM]

Good Q!

I believe the idea with that set up is that the bass in the wedges will be so low that it minimizes the bleed. Just enough for the player their part. Otherwise, you are quite correct.

Why even have a bass player there in the first place? Why not just send him home?

 

[lfmn16]

I think a big disconnect in this discussion is that there is a difference between an actual FOH engineer and "the guy at the venue that knows the most about using the mixer."

+1

Like the difference between a guy holding a bass and a bass player.

 

[Kmonk]

I have seen several very well known national acts who are not using amps. Guitarists are using pedals for distortion, reverb, etc and the bass players are running direct. Everything is sent through a monitor feed so the band members can hear themselves and each other. The guys I’ve spoken with have told me that it’s much easier to hear everyone and they don’t have to deal with stage volume affecting the mix out front.

 

[HolmeBass]

Good Q. I assume you mean at the board for each channel?

I’m sure the more adept sound engineers do that. But setting each of those channels on the board for, say, 5 vocal mics plus maybe an equal number of drum mics and potentially a couple guitar amp mics, while theoretically possible, may simply not happen on the fly at a given venue.

And, at least in my measurements, the Bass remains pervasive at frequencies well above 200 Hz; and if you start setting your HPF shoulder that high, you actually start compromising the signals that you are trying to manage in a given mic.

At 150 Hz and up the directionality of your cabinet and the cardioid mic pattern should provide plenty of isolation. Only the super low freqs are fully omnidirectional.

 

[Manticore]

Why even have a bass player there in the first place? Why not just send him home?

Ah come on! The bass player is there to make the band visually appealing! Of course you can't send the bass player home.

 

[BurningSkies]

So I've been with this folk group for over a year now, and we play with a loud full 5 piece band, singer plays an acoustic guitar, full drum kit and two electric guitars. I own an ampeg V4B reissue 100 watt tube head and so far every show we have played I've been told not to use it. They run me through the PA and Mic everyone else. Is this fairly common practice? If so what's the point of even owning an amp as a bassist. Just a bit of a rant, when you drop a couple of grand on a nice amp you want to use it!

I dunno what to tell you mang. I stand in front of a 6' tall 2500w amp and also use IEMs at shows at the same time.

This stands out to me as the problem:

"every show we have played I've been told not to use it."

I guess you're just a hired sideman without any say?

 

[Paulabass]

I guessed you missed the part of my post where I said "unless you are a "touring" band with your own sound guy." which I "assumed" would be clear enough to imply "touring/label" acts.
I've done plenty gigs over the years for those types where we provided SR and they brought their own FOH "guy" - everyone from Steppenwolf to the Byrds, to Grover Washington Jr..
In that scenario, of course we bent over backwards for the artist. There's a reputation to maintain.
But those guys are very different from the festival, regional and local guys which (I believe) is the large majority of folks on TB.
As I also stated. YMMV

You stated you did FOH (at any level) then talked about how FOH people are unapproachable and were going to what they want no matter what, at the cost of said FOH making your band sound terrible. Sorry, you're just not painting a pretty picture of yourself (or your community).
All the reputable folks I know in pro audio bend over backwards to fulfil the artists wishes (at any level). It's a dog eat dog world out there, but at least you should always have your FOH guy in your corner NO MATTER WHO IS SIGNING HIS CHECK, or wether it's a club, regional festival, or Wembly Stadium.

 

[ThinCrappyTone]

singer plays an acoustic guitar, full drum kit and two electric guitars

Talented singer!

 

[BurningSkies]

I guessed you missed the part of my post where I said "unless you are a "touring" band with your own sound guy." which I "assumed" would be clear enough to imply "touring/label" acts.
I've done plenty gigs over the years for those types where we provided SR and they brought their own FOH "guy" - everyone from Steppenwolf to the Byrds, to Grover Washington Jr..
In that scenario, of course we bent over backwards for the artist. There's a reputation to maintain.
But those guys are very different from the festival, regional and local guys which (I believe) is the large majority of folks on TB.
As I also stated. YMMV

One of the reasons we ended up going IEM was because we couldn't count on monitor systems in smaller room and/or the quality of sound engineering. In the end we felt like it was impacting the show that the audience was getting because our singers couldn't hear for 3 part harmonies, and often none of the rest of the band could hear much of anything on stage.

We're on the regional club/theater and festival circuit and sound is widely divergent. Some nights we tell them to pull me out of the subs since they can't keep up and I can do a better job than my rig. Other nights we have high end flown line arrays and beautiful systems. Some clubs don't want to invest in good equipment or the upkeep for it. The same is true for sound engineers. One gig recently was a complete crapshow and they couldn't even patch the stage right and decided to blame it on us (PS, don't give us a hot mic if you don't want us to broadcast to the audience what your failings at sound production are if you're going to cuss us for your own shortcomings). There was feedback in FOH all night and they wouldn't listen to our team telling them that they were ringing at 2K. Other nights we have a truly professional team who makes sound brilliance look easy.

We always always always carry our full backline. We also carry 25x 25' XLRs, extra 58's, beta 57's, condensers and a handful of DIs. At the very least we're ready to produce appropriate sound at appropriate volumes as needed.

What else? If a show is really important and we're not sure about provided sound personnel...we hire our own. The more skin in the gig, the more likely we'll do that. Believe it or not you can get a great engineer for less than you think to walk in step up to the board and make you sound really good.

I can tell when a sound engineer was too lazy to look at the advance, our plot, our IEM tech, our linelist.

 

[bdplaid]

Good Q!

I believe the idea with that set up is that the bass in the wedges will be so low that it minimizes the bleed. Just enough for the player their part. Otherwise, you are quite correct.

If there are live drums onstage all bets are off regarding low volume bass in the monitors. Even the drummer wants to hear the bass. No, bass in wedges is a bad idea. Again, ask me how I know.

Low stage volume is definitely preferred, and in my book it's better to come from an amp simply because the amp sounds better than any bass through a vocal wedge.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

So I've been with this folk group for over a year now, and we play with a loud full 5 piece band, singer plays an acoustic guitar, full drum kit and two electric guitars. I own an ampeg V4B reissue 100 watt tube head and so far every show we have played I've been told not to use it. They run me through the PA and Mic everyone else. Is this fairly common practice? If so what's the point of even owning an amp as a bassist. Just a bit of a rant, when you drop a couple of grand on a nice amp you want to use it!

1) I’d sure love to not have to lug gear to a gig

2) I’d sure hate someone telling me what gear to use or not use

Hope this helps

Lol, but seriously, that’s a pretty interesting predicament. Is your tone and volume incredible in rehearsal? I’d be pretty steamed if I didn’t get to use my curated sound on the job if so, especially in a folk setting. That would be a rage-quittable offense in my book. I’ve seen every scenario but relying on monitor wedges for bass on stage seems... stupid, and lazy. If it’s a festival and 5 jobbing bands are sharing backline, sure, I’ll do whatever they want. For a small venue, original music, original sound... I’d be unhappy, I think you’re justified.

I must admit I’m not familiar with the loud electric folk genre... is that like Mumford and Sons and such?

A couple questions: Do you rehearse with the gear in question? Are you in a band that doesn’t rehearse and you don’t have to bring gear to the gig? In that case, can I get their number if it doesn’t work out for you?

 

[fourstringburn]

@soulman969 hit it on the head, guitar mics can't handle bass amps frequencies. If you want a Mic you usually have to bring it yourself.

Not necessarily, a Shure SM 57 works just as good on Bass as it would on guitars and drums. These makes have been used on stages for over 40 years and can take high SPL's and can still be bought for around a C-note.

Using a mic on Bass probably wouldn't work to well with a loud rock band due to bleed over from other on stage instruments.

I see where professional gigs mic amps backstage and even have small amps in a box. This is the way I would do it if I was going to mic a cab to provide better isolation.

I always just use a D.I. and use my amps for stage monitoring.