Why bother owning an amp

[JimmyM]

Hmm, would the Beta57 be better?

Not really However, that isn't to say that any of them won't sound good on bass. They actually sound pretty excellent on bass, and in certain situations, they can go low enough to work. I just think they work better when you have a DI to fill out any missing lows.

 

[Mike Marshall]

I have to tell sound men quite often how to Eq the bass since so many of them are leftovers from the Disco era with super deep vomit inducing lows and bombastic bass drum volumes that destroy the intent of the group. Ever notice how many try to see how loud they can get a bass drum, that's a firing offense right off the bat.

 

[NOVAX]

I hear you. But, it does depend on the gig. Getting to a big stage high profile gig and having the sound engineer insist that you turn your bass down to the point where it is barely audible can change your perspective.

No offense to anyone - I've been on the big gig and been told turn down or your out of the mains. I said fine if I'm driving the room that well, I don't need the mains. I've done sound on both sides of the equation. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm just over it. Everybody have fun. Everybody wang chung.

 

[Paulabass]

I have to tell sound men quite often how to Eq the bass since so many of them are leftovers from the Disco era with super deep vomit inducing lows and bombastic bass drum volumes that destroy the intent of the group. Ever notice how many try to see how loud they can get a bass drum, that's a firing offense right off the bat.

A trend too often seen (and heard) start the mix with how loud you can get the kick drum. Forget that the punch is at 100, just see how much 40 you can get.

 

[stingray78]

I play a lot of different venues in all sizes, and more often than not low frequencies bleeding back onto the stage from the FOH subs are the problem, not the bass amp on stage. And low frequencies can come from keyboard, kick drum and guitar, not just the bass. A bass amp reasonably adjusted to overall desired band stage volume and room acoustics is never an issue. Loud bass over wedge monitors often adds more mud to stage sound than your amp. I would compromise, use your sound guys DI and your own amp at a volume where he has control over FOH.

 

[JGbassman]

I always bring an amp. My stage mix is generally dictated by how heavy handed my drummers are. When I toured professionally, I always had a great in ears mix, but always had an amp on stage as well. The sound of my bass in my ears was generated by my amp.

An actual professional engineer is an absolute joy to work with. You set your sound, he makes it work. And they do an amazing job. If you want a mic on the cab, di, pre or post, whatever, all at the same time, no problem. Ears, side fills, an amp in the back with a di and mic was my happy place. I never once had an issue with an actual sound engineer.

Every thing has various levels of competence; that's just how the world works.

There are good sound people at the lower pro and ameture levels, as there are musicians. Regardless of the venue or stage, I always bring an amp. Why? Gremlins. There is nothing worse than playing a gig not hearing yourself. An amp makes sure that doesn't happen.

A decent sound coming off the stage can be easily mixed with the foh, using the foh to "prop" up the sound coming from the amp. The same is true for guitars, and especially the drums. Unless you are on a bigger stage, the foh is extremely loud, or stage volume is crazy quiet, there will be bleed from the stage out front. Especially in a smaller bar or club. Anyone that knows anything about live sound can get this to mix well, given the stage volume is at a respectable level. Any sound guy that has mixed acoustic drums in a club has used this approach, wether they realized it or not. The bass guitar amp is no different.

For the op, bring your amp, use your amp. Many times when people say the bass is too loud, they mean boomy. Back out of the lows and boost a touch of mids without touching the volume and be suprised on how it makes a huge difference out front.

I bring an amp to every gig, often with 4,6, or 8 drivers in various cabs I run, and I can't remember the last time a sound person asked me to turn my amp down. I like to mic a cab if I'm going for a certain sound, but I always send a wet signal to the board. I never get complaints.

 

[eff-clef]

First page in my handbook: If you work with the Sound Person, he/she will be more likely to make you and your band sound good. Never do anything to piss of a sound person. Yes, the good ones will make you sound good even if you're a jerk, but it's never helpful to be combative - even with a good FOH person, you're wasting time if you're arguing. For the gigs I do, everyone (production folks and performers included) is there to create something together; arguing with the sound person means it's your last time playing there. You'll find that to be true in most circumstances.

Not if you're paying him.

 

[40Hz]

Soundman suggestion huh? Take it with a grain of salt. Bring your rig. Have him take a feed from the DI. Just watch your volume. Many FOH have to deal with loud bands that have no concept of how a PA works. Low to moderate stage volume is key. Let the PA do the work.

This.

 

[40Hz]

Just say no. I don’t work for the sound guy, he works for me. Unless you want to play amp less of course.

This too.

 

[micguy]

They are a little light on the lows, though.

Like many mics, SM 57's do roll off some lows. The roll off isn't as much in real life as you see in the curves - that's a 2 foot curve, and when you close mic things, the proximity effect will give you a considerable bass boost at low frequencies.

The bigger issue is that your cabinets don't really reproduce the lowest notes that your bass puts out, and if you're miking the cone, you're missing what the port puts out, which limits the low frequencies even further. Net result is you're missing a LOT of the lowest octave if you're miking your cabinet. Which is why, if I'm doing FOH, I will mic your cabinet if you want, but I will also use a DI, so I can get solid low end. I'll blend your cabinet in at mid and high freq's, so I can get the character of your amp, but it'll sound a whole lot better than your amp alone does when I blend in low end from the DI. I'm not using a DI because I'm "lazy" - I'm doing twice the work to get you better results, and dedicating 2 channels on my board to you.

If I'm the bass player, I bring a pedalboard, which conditions my signal so it should sound good through FOH. I hear myself through in ears.

Whichever position I'm in, I do the most i can do to accommodate the other person - I'll do the most I can at FOH to please the artist. Ill do the most I can as a bassist to work with FOH to make their life as easy as I can. So far, that approach works for me, and as far as I can tell, it works for everyone I work with.

 

[micguy]

Not if you're paying him.

Doesn't happen much in my world, If it does in your world, I'm sure that changes things.

 

[bucephylus]

The only thing that surprises me in this thread is the large number of vociferously adversarial posts directed at fellow bass players. What is that all about? Aren’t we all in this scene together?

I’m with many of you that change of something that I thought worked just fine is more than a bit frustrating. I like my bass rig.

But, for whatever reason I’m not going to debate, a gig I am doing decided to go ampless. OK, well, I like doing gigs, so, I went about trying to solve the new problems. I guess I could have just told them to find someone else; but availability of local gigs isn’t really on the rise.

Anyhow, in trying to figure out how to do this, I have had a couple of conversations with James Demeter, who makes the amps I use; and he happens to make amps for bass players in several major touring acts. Among others he told me that the sound engineers in Jackson Browne’s band had recently told the current bass player (might have been Bob Glaub, I forget) that he had to get his cabs off the stage. And there were others going that direction as well.

At the more local level, Behringer has made boards economically available that do this, and folks are using them.

I can see where this is all frustrating for bass players. But, I don’t really see why we should take that frustration out on each other. It didn’t come from bass players. OK, if you don’t like playing that way, I understand and even sympathize. But, those of us trying to sort the thing out aren’t the bad guys.

 

[chuck3]

I've learned to play through the FOH over the last 5 years or so. It was the band's consensus of how to do things at smaller, indoors gigs. But I bring my bass amp head and use the DI from it. For this purpose I use the Streamliner 900, which doesn't require a speaker load and has a great DI out. For outdoors gigs, including one we just played, I bring the full rig and don't go through the FOH generally.

 

[Mugre]

It's good enough for Geddy Lee.

In a club, the sound guy doesn't work for me unless I sign his check. In most cases he works for the house and the house makes the rules including the rules about short sound checks.

For a couple of reasons, having a (mic'ed) bass amp in the room while using PA support tends to cause woofy indistinct bass. Destructive interference and phase incoherence due to differring arrival times cause frequency holes and uneven coverage. The extra open mic adds mud from bleed and lowers feedback thresholds. Having only one bass source without an open mic on the stage is a quicker way to get to clean and controllable. In a club, the process of getting to optimal will almost always stop as soon as workable is attained.

On the list of 10 things that house sound guys and club managers/owners worry about, "is the bass player happy?" is number 11.

 

[SactoBass]

if I'm doing FOH, I will mic your cabinet if you want, but I will also use a DI, so I can get solid low end. I'll blend your cabinet in at mid and high freq's, so I can get the character of your amp, but it'll sound a whole lot better than your amp alone does when I blend in low end from the DI.

I'm doing twice the work to get you better results, and dedicating 2 channels on my board to you.

^^^THIS!!!

Using both is the way to go!

 

[HolmeBass]

My data were mainly gathered at 200 Hz. No particular reason for that choice, except that there is significant bass content there. I did verify there were no odd ball resonances going on. I used a 4’x8’ sheet of 5/8” plywood on a frame; the standard stage plate on the mobile risers we all get to play on. The induced vibration in the stage sheet was significant with three different cabs, and generally not affected by isolation devices placed beneath the cabinet. There is a bit more to it, but, you will have to wait for the paper.

What I will say is that all the experimental details are there. So, anyone is free to check what was done. That’s the way it works. Science is objective.

Nice, I don’t doubt that plywood like that resonated quite a bit. My point was will the mics really pick that stuff at 200 Hz up? What was the dispersion pattern of the plywood resonator? Also, I would say you went pretty “worst case” with that, especially if it was framed only on the edges of the 4x8 ply. And the guitars also put out plenty at 200 Hz.

So my point is how much bleed really from the bass, and if you’re also getting bleed from other sources, so what? Why does the bassist always have to carry this “turn down you’re too loud” water for the band?

 

[dbsfgyd1]

So I've been with this folk group for over a year now, and we play with a loud full 5 piece band, singer plays an acoustic guitar, full drum kit and two electric guitars. I own an ampeg V4B reissue 100 watt tube head and so far every show we have played I've been told not to use it. They run me through the PA and Mic everyone else. Is this fairly common practice? If so what's the point of even owning an amp as a bassist. Just a bit of a rant, when you drop a couple of grand on a nice amp you want to use it!

Well, in theory it makes sense with a good FOH PA. That said, I’ve yet to hear a monitor, either traditional or in ear, that can replicate the sound, tactile feel, and texture of a great bass amp.

 

[bucephylus]

Nice, I don’t doubt that plywood like that resonated quite a bit. My point was will the mics really pick that stuff at 200 Hz up? What was the dispersion pattern of the plywood resonator? Also, I would say you went pretty “worst case” with that, especially if it was framed only on the edges of the 4x8 ply. And the guitars also put out plenty at 200 Hz.

So my point is how much bleed really from the bass, and if you’re also getting bleed from other sources, so what? Why does the bassist always have to carry this “turn down you’re too loud” water for the band?

+1 This stuff totally applies to all instrumentation on the stage.

My frame had a center support bar in addition to the perimeter. Pretty much the same as the standard portable stages. Is it worse case? In a realistic way, yes, worst case of real world stages we are going to run into on the gig. I’ve played on them.

 

[Tommygun_ted]

This is bang on. I like the bass to have a warm fluffy tone to it. I play with my fingers and through my amp I get that purr I'm looking for. Looking back on the videos of the show today, my tone was extremely bright and zingy. I'm sure it's what works for some but not me.

To me, my bass amp IS PART OF MY TONE. It is something I've worked at developing along with my technique- making the amp work in a certain way.

For some sound guy to take a DI off the bass itself or not mike the cab is like telling the drummer to "just play by slapping your hands on your knees; I can make that sound like drums in the FOH" is just not right.

Some guys (Tim Commerford, Rob Weston) have been known to NOT use a DI in either live or recordings. as a matter of fact, Tim DEMANDED no DI on the Evil Empire album!

Now some players like the Hi-Fi sound of a DI'd bass. I'm not one of them. Sounds like you aren't either, since you have a V4B (which does HAVE IT'S OWN TONAL CHARACTER).

 

[Tommygun_ted]

Our guitarist is also very opinionated on my tone. I prefer to play with flats, he insists I use rounds. I play with the mids up higher than bass and highs, he keeps insisting I crank the bass. I'm no expert on tone but I model my settings off of famous tones I like the sound of and tweak from there. My amp has a rocker switch for the EQ. That's boosts low, mid or high frequencies and I generally leave my EQ and flip that to suit the room.