Why bother owning an amp

[HolmeBass]

+1 This stuff totally applies to all instrumentation on the stage.

My frame had a center support bar in addition to the perimeter. Pretty much the same as the standard portable stages. Is it worse case? In a realistic way, yes, worst case of real world stages we are going to run into on the gig. I’ve played on them.

I agree, unfortunately very realistic!

 

[bdplaid]

Those same large pressure waves that come off the stage also cause the stage plate and other stuff on the stage to vibrate. I’ve measured it. It’s called acoustic coupling and it happens.

Lest you think this post has some kind of business spin to it; it doesn’t. My little devices do not help the issue. Stay tuned; I have a manuscript detailing the measurements. Should be available shortly. At that point, we can have a more fact based discussion.

Until then, let’s please be respectful, even if we disagree.

Sorry if you thought I was being disrespectful; I meant no such thing.

Bass amps have the power to vibrate everything on the stage, creating even further problems in that there are then new and exciting sound sources with which to deal.

Keeping the stage volume under control is the key to good FOH sound. But I am an admitted hypocrite regarding that.

And going back to the OP, I'm happy to hear suggestions from the crew, but i don't feel obliged to avail myself of such.

 

[JimmyM]

Like many mics, SM 57's do roll off some lows. The roll off isn't as much in real life as you see in the curves - that's a 2 foot curve, and when you close mic things, the proximity effect will give you a considerable bass boost at low frequencies.

The bigger issue is that your cabinets don't really reproduce the lowest notes that your bass puts out, and if you're miking the cone, you're missing what the port puts out, which limits the low frequencies even further. Net result is you're missing a LOT of the lowest octave if you're miking your cabinet. Which is why, if I'm doing FOH, I will mic your cabinet if you want, but I will also use a DI, so I can get solid low end. I'll blend your cabinet in at mid and high freq's, so I can get the character of your amp, but it'll sound a whole lot better than your amp alone does when I blend in low end from the DI. I'm not using a DI because I'm "lazy" - I'm doing twice the work to get you better results, and dedicating 2 channels on my board to you

Gotta disagree about the ports. Since those lows are omnidirectional, the port sounds get to the mic regardless.

If I'm the bass player, I bring a pedalboard, which conditions my signal so it should sound good through FOH. I hear myself through in ears.

Whichever position I'm in, I do the most i can do to accommodate the other person - I'll do the most I can at FOH to please the artist. Ill do the most I can as a bassist to work with FOH to make their life as easy as I can. So far, that approach works for me, and as far as I can tell, it works for everyone I work with.

It's a fair approach for conscientious sound techs. Unfortunately, I've had too many screw me when I allowed them to use both a DI and mic, by turning off the mic. Anyway, I gave up on the mic a few years ago, and as you suggested, I condition the crap out of my DI signal to make it sound as much like a mic'ed cab as possible. Only once have I had a guy try to bypass my pedals...I nipped that in the bud right quick.

 

[JimmyM]

Our guitarist is also very opinionated on my tone. I prefer to play with flats, he insists I use rounds. I play with the mids up higher than bass and highs, he keeps insisting I crank the bass. I'm no expert on tone but I model my settings off of famous tones I like the sound of and tweak from there. My amp has a rocker switch for the EQ. That's boosts low, mid or high frequencies and I generally leave my EQ and flip that to suit the room.

I get band members having opinions. I listen to them when they have suggestions, too. Don't always follow them but often I do.

 

[bdplaid]

Anyway, I gave up on the mic a few years ago, and as you suggested, I condition the crap out of my DI signal to make it sound as much like a mic'ed cab as possible. Only once have I had a guy try to bypass my pedals...I nipped that in the bud right quick.

Right, me too. I've even gone so far as to record using my amp as the DI. This surprised a lot of engineers with how good it can sound. I use a Quilter BB800 which allows some sonic magic depending on the gain and master settings, and I want to be sure to retain that as it's part of my sound.

 

[Pbassmanca]

I'd be perfectly happy to run direct if them other guys left their marshall/mesa/orange/whatever at home or at least didn't run the tubes at cold war volumes.

Ha ha, cold war volume - "nuclear watts"....

 

[BurningSkies]

While this is true, it varies greatly from situation to situation as to whether it screws the pooch or not. It's definitely not a given. It was rare on my gigs where I mic'ed that it happened. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any time it did.

Because it sounded to me like you were advocating that approach If you weren't, mi mistako, but while I get the idea that all live sound is a series of compromises, I just think that some folks take it way too far one way or another. Like I'm not going to use 4 SVT's all on 11, but just because someone did is no reason I shouldn't be able to use one at least. I'm miserable enough onstage without taking ALL the joy out of it.

I have an amp on stage because I LIKE having an amp on stage, and so does my band. It's part of our experience along with the audience's. I tried bringing my on stage volume way down for a couple of shows (remember we're mostly IEM at this point), but everyone wants some SPL against their skin. Generally I don't get complaints or requests from sound engineers to turn down, so...yeah. I'll keep using an amp.

The last guy who groused about us having too much stage volume...we discovered it was that he wanted to use pre-set pre-determined gain/trim levels on his board rather than bothering to do it right.

 

[Pbassmanca]

I'm miserable enough onstage without taking ALL the joy out of it.

 

[Pbassmanca]

I'd be perfectly happy to run direct if them other guys left their marshall/mesa/orange/whatever at home or at least didn't run the tubes at cold war volumes.

Ha ha, cold war volume - "nuclear watts"....

 

[retslock]

Why are people automatically assuming that this dude's amp is not the better solution? It's a V4B... Get real! It not only smokes the lame direct PA sound, but I've heard a rumor that they have volume knobs! I see no reason the guy shouldn't get what he wants. I'd tell that sound guy to get bent, and tell him that when everybody goes Direct, so will he.

Yep I’m with you. When you go to a restaurant it’s not wise to complain about the food before you eat. Otherwise you might get some added ingredient you didn’t count on. So it is with some sound guys. Some I’ve run across are control freaks and if you don’t do it their way you’re not gonna end up sounding your best.
Your amp is your monitor and you will adjust the tone the way you like it. If your bass goes straight to a D.I. with a split to your amp you can run it at an appropriately moderate level and stay out of the FOH’s way. If the band sounds like crap in that scenario it’s my guess that the FOH has cloth ears like many do. I know what I’ve said will annoy PA guys who get it right and I apologise to those people. In this country, plenty of people know how to set up a rig and operate knobs and faders but too many have no idea about tonal quality in music. I’ve been to many gigs as a listener and the band is being murdered by bad tone and mix. It happens. Sorry PA guys.

 

[retslock]

A trend too often seen (and heard) start the mix with how loud you can get the kick drum. Forget that the punch is at 100, just see how much 40 you can get.

Here’s a novel idea. A drummer once said to me a long long time ago that if you can’t hear the bass drum acoustically on stage, YOU’RE TOO LOUD! He was right.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

A trend too often seen (and heard) start the mix with how loud you can get the kick drum. Forget that the punch is at 100, just see how much 40 you can get.

Unless you're in disco world where all they want is a click at about 2KHz

 

[BurningSkies]

A trend too often seen (and heard) start the mix with how loud you can get the kick drum. Forget that the punch is at 100, just see how much 40 you can get.

Yep, and now you know why they HPF the bass at 30ish hz.

Very common in the 'rock club' world to do this. That said, I usually get kick in my IEM and/or wedge if that is the way we're running a stage on a give night. With a band that has multiple guitar amps on stage, keys and lots of vocals, 'acoustic kick you can hear on stage' is a fairytale.

 

[bdplaid]

I have an amp on stage because I LIKE having an amp on stage, and so does my band. It's part of our experience along with the audience's. I tried bringing my on stage volume way down for a couple of shows (remember we're mostly IEM at this point), but everyone wants some SPL against their skin. Generally I don't get complaints or requests from sound engineers to turn down, so...yeah. I'll keep using an amp.

The last guy who groused about us having too much stage volume...we discovered it was that he wanted to use pre-set pre-determined gain/trim levels on his board rather than bothering to do it right.

This takes laziness to an art form.

And to engineers who purposely sabotage a mix out of spite... You do realize every musician and many people in the audience then think you're incompetent, right? People aren't as dumb as you.

 

[bdplaid]

Here’s a novel idea. A drummer once said to me a long long time ago that if you can’t hear the bass drum acoustically on stage, YOU’RE TOO LOUD! He was right.

I think there's truth to that, but it falls apart when playing with tone queens using tube amps who insist on getting "their sound." I remain shocked at how loud 15 watts can become.

 

[micguy]

Gotta disagree about the ports. Since those lows are omnidirectional, the port sounds get to the mic regardless.

Yes, it is omnidirectional, so some of it gets to the mic, but if you drive the speaker at the port resonance frequency, and move a mic around on the surface of the speaker, watching a meter of the level of the mic in the process (I have done this), you'll find that the level drops quickly when you move away from the port - the inverse square law (one of the things they taught us early on in Acoustical Physics courses) is something you just can't cheat. If you're miking the edge of the cone, I'd suggest you make it the edge nearest the port. That won't fix the issue, but it'll reduce it some.

 

[BurningSkies]

I think there's truth to that, but it falls apart when playing with tone queens using tube amps who insist on getting "their sound." I remain shocked at how loud 15 watts can become.

I have to disagree to this. You can't expect all genres of music to have whisper quiet stage volumes. There are loads of genres where it's not feasible to do that unless you're burying the backline under/behind stage in isolation or everyone agrees to use modeling gear and IEM.

I don't even play heavy genre stuff and generally speaking any of the many many players we've shared stage with or engineers in hundreds of rooms have suggested we're too loud for what we do.

Even on kit alone, different components (cymbals, toms, snare) have varying volumes and as acoustic instruments have a 'sweet spot' for tone to fit a type of music or genre.

 

[JimmyM]

Yes, it is omnidirectional, so some of it gets to the mic, but if you drive the speaker at the port resonance frequency, and move a mic around on the surface of the speaker, watching a meter of the level of the mic in the process (I have done this), you'll find that the level drops quickly when you move away from the port - the inverse square law (one of the things they taught us early on in Acoustical Physics courses) is something you just can't cheat. If you're miking the edge of the cone, I'd suggest you make it the edge nearest the port. That won't fix the issue, but it'll reduce it some.

Between the proximity of the mic to the cone (I always mic it right down the middle to get the most treble) and the fact that you get enough level from the lows hitting the mic regardless, I have never found it to be a problem in practicality.

 

[Pbassmanca]

Bit of a tangent but I wonder if there's any truth to @Leland Sklar using a kick drum mic for his bass cab on live gigs? Apparently sounds fantastic.

 

[JimmyM]

Bit of a tangent but I wonder if there's any truth to @Leland Sklar using a kick drum mic for his bass cab on live gigs? Apparently sounds fantastic.

It may be true. A lot of bass players do. But while I'd rather have something like an RE20, it ain't the end of the world if someone mics your cab with a bass drum mic.