Why bother owning an amp

[zachoff]

Bit of a tangent but I wonder if there's any truth to @Leland Sklar using a kick drum mic for his bass cab on live gigs? Apparently sounds fantastic.

Last time I recorded I used a Beta52A... Turned out pretty great!

 

[EastCoastThump]

Many of the most commonly used kick mics boost lows and highs. Effectively, they'll scoop your mids.

In most settings, a Beta 52A scoops aggressively:

Similarly, a D112 scoops a lot:

The ATM25 scoops a little:

Like Jimmy, I usually prefer a more honest mic on cabs—like the RE20:

 

[bdplaid]

It may be true. A lot of bass players do. But while I'd rather have something like an RE20, it ain't the end of the world if someone mics your cab with a bass drum mic.

Exactly the mic I use and love for everything. Try micing a sax with it; oh boy!

But the point of kick drum mics is that they are large diaphragm and usually have better low end response.

 

[bdplaid]

I have to disagree to this. You can't expect all genres of music to have whisper quiet stage volumes. There are loads of genres where it's not feasible to do that unless you're burying the backline under/behind stage in isolation or everyone agrees to use modeling gear and IEM.

I don't even play heavy genre stuff and generally speaking any of the many many players we've shared stage with or engineers in hundreds of rooms have suggested we're too loud for what we do.

Even on kit alone, different components (cymbals, toms, snare) have varying volumes and as acoustic instruments have a 'sweet spot' for tone to fit a type of music or genre.

I think I wasn't clear.
I play in two bands that are opposites of each other. One has a light handed drummer but a very loud guitarist. The other has a deafening drummer and TWO guitarists with Marshalls that are some of the quietest guitarists with whom I've worked. I have to run the Marshalls - MARSHALLS! - in my monitor to hear them.

Stage volume is a problem in both bands. The first caused by the guy "getting his tone," the second caused by the drummer and me because I play to acoustic drum volume.

If everyone would play to drum volume it would be a heck of a lot easier.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I've told this story a few times on here, but it warrants repeating. A few years ago, a friend's band opened for me. I was using my Mesa 400+ a lot in that project and my friend was very excited to play through it when I offered it for his set. As many of you know, the 400 series takes its DI signal straight off the output transformer, so you are getting 12 6L6s to the desk. Sitting in the audience during my friend's set was an eye-opening experience. The bass tone through FOH would not have been able to be replicated by an uncolored DI - no way, no how. The system wasn't anything mind-blowing either, just basic Peavey FOH. If an uncolored DI signal with no amp works for you, then that is great. But this idea that we shouldn't use amps because this, that, and the other is just asinine. Amps do impart colorization (that you may or may not desire) and it does matter to the overall FOH mix, so as long as the person behind the console is competent.

I've worked with a number of sound engineers, and the majority are great. The ones who have been problems were generally hacks. I've used DI boxes, DIs from amps, speaker-level DIs, and mics. All of the competent sound engineers were able to make all of those inputs work. I work with a number of sound engineers who get excited when I pull out the PR40 and prefer it to when the times I use a DI. Being professional and having good tone right out of the box helps. Bleed and other issues are way overblown in this thread: good engineers generally have a handle on things like gain structuring, HPF, LPF, gating, aux subs, etc. that minimize those issues.

Geez, as bass players, there really is a culture here of selling ourselves short.

As far as bass in the monitors, I've had some great bass reinforcement in wedges, but that is generally when working with large sound companies doing national concerts. The typical local cats running Yamaha club series monitors probably isn't going to have sufficient bass reinforcement and putting bass in the monitors will yield the dreaded speaker clipping and boxy bass sound.

 

[HolmeBass]

You stated you did FOH (at any level) then talked about how FOH people are unapproachable and were going to what they want no matter what, at the cost of said FOH making your band sound terrible. Sorry, you're just not painting a pretty picture of yourself (or your community).
All the reputable folks I know in pro audio bend over backwards to fulfil the artists wishes (at any level). It's a dog eat dog world out there, but at least you should always have your FOH guy in your corner NO MATTER WHO IS SIGNING HIS CHECK, or wether it's a club, regional festival, or Wembly Stadium.

I've posted this many times, but worth it again: it's funny how *the best* sound engineers, those who make every band sound great, always also seem to be those who let the musicians do whatever they want to do. For example - take Post EQ DI from your head, let you use your amp, throw a mic on a cab if you request it and there's enough time, don't make you turn your amp down totally quieter than the drummer is playing, etc. etc.

 

[s0c9]

I've posted this many times, but worth it again: it's funny how *the best* sound engineers, those who make every band sound great, always also seem to be those who let the musicians do whatever they want to do. For example - take Post EQ DI from your head, let you use your amp, throw a mic on a cab if you request it and there's enough time, don't make you turn your amp down totally quieter than the drummer is playing, etc. etc.

Question #1: "How can you tell the band sounds great" while playing on stage? You have ZERO reference.
Question #2: If you're NOT playing on stage and the band sounds great, how do you know that FOH are one of "those who let the musicians do whatever they want to do" ???

 

[micguy]

Between the proximity of the mic to the cone (I always mic it right down the middle to get the most treble) and the fact that you get enough level from the lows hitting the mic regardless, I have never found it to be a problem in practicality.

If you're happy with your results, great.

 

[HolmeBass]

Question #1: "How can you tell the band sounds great" while playing on stage? You have ZERO reference.
Question #2: If you're NOT playing on stage and the band sounds great, how do you know that FOH are one of "those who let the musicians do whatever they want to do" ???

Because I've worked with them at festivals so I got to hear what they did with the bands before and after us; and at our town's Fridays After Five and a relatively big theater here in town. So I have both worked with them as performer, in multiple different bands, and been in the audience many times hearing what those engineers did with other bands. In many cases bands with which I am very familiar and friends with, and have heard in smaller settings, with players I play with in other bands. So I really know what they sound like.

Some engineers make *every* band they mix sound fantastic. In particular one woman who works the festival circuit in Virginia - she is a wizard, and accommodates anything and everything from the performers, even on a tightly scheduled festival stage. Nothing ever ruffles her feathers.

 

[s0c9]

In particular one woman who works the festival circuit in Virginia - she is a wizard, and accommodates anything and everything from the performers, even on a tightly scheduled festival stage. Nothing ever ruffles her feathers.

Neat !!
Now if ONLY I could get the bands I run at festivals to turn down their stage amps; bring their "own" gear they want to use that actually WORKS; have the same number of instruments and members indicated in their stage plots (and tech riders) when they hit the stage; NOT feed me L/R out of their X32 Rack then have their "people" tell me they can't hear the guitar.. yada, yada, yada..

 

[HolmeBass]

Neat !!

She in particular requests post DI from the amp. Well, except at one wine festival in NoVa where she was working with a different stage company and the stage manager insisted I use an outboard DI, which was annoying.

Then he had to eat crow and ask to borrow my rig for the next band. I was about to say "no" but then recognized the next band as friends we had played with at other festivals, so I said yes and let their bassist use my rig.

 

[s0c9]

She in particular requests post DI from the amp. Well, except at one wine festival in NoVa where she was working with a different stage company and the stage manager insisted I use an outboard DI, which was annoying.

Then he had to eat crow and ask to borrow my rig for the next band. I was about to say "no" but then recognized the next band as friends we had played with at other festivals, so I said yes and let their bassist use my rig.

For Festival mixing, I really don't care whether I get a pre or post DI feed from bass or guitars. As I stated earlier, I PREFER DI's whenever possible. My ONLY issue with mics (on amps) is that too many musicians have little knowledge of the signal chain, they turn it up on stage and screw up my gain settings. And some amps DI (POST) levels are affected by the Master volume level and EQ changes. So messing with your EQ or Master volume CAN have an impact on FOH. It's tough enough mixing bands on the fly with no sound check at festivals without wondering why you suddenly have feedback - and finding out that the guitar/bass player turned up their mic'ed amp and (since they wanted that in the wedges) now have feedback happening!!
I'll work with any band as to what they want.. but there are limits. It's mostly the "Hey look! We're playing _______ Festival. We're stars (but clueless)!!" and start throwing their weight around that I try to set rules. Headliners.. no.
Seasoned folks generally are NOT temperamental.

Again.. I've been on both sides of the stage for many years, so I DO understand BOTH sides of the equation.

 

[Wood and Wire]

"turn down or your out of the mains."

It's sound reinforcement : if something doesn't need reinforcing, don't crud up the mix by putting it in there anyway.

(That's not to say that some musicians aren't playing way too loudly, which just causes more problems than it solves).

But it does seem that some FOH folk have forgotten that it's sound reinforcement / augmentation, NOT sound replacement / alteration.

 

[s0c9]

It's sound reinforcement : if something doesn't need reinforcing, don't crud up the mix by putting it in there anyway.

(That's not to say that some musicians aren't playing way too loudly, which just causes more problems than it solves).

But it does seem that some FOH folk have forgotten that it's sound reinforcement / augmentation, NOT sound replacement / alteration.

Valid point.. But.. It also seems that some musicians have forgotten that just because you have an FOH guy, doesn't mean that FOH has a 20,000 watt PA on which to reinforce your sound

 

[Wood and Wire]

Valid point.. But.. It also seems that some musicians have forgotten that just because you have an FOH guy, doesn't mean that FOH has a 20,000 watt PA on which to reinforce your sound

The excessively loud ones, yeah....

...unless...

... You don't mean those presumptuous, entitled musicians, who show up with nothing more than a Sansamp / POD, and expect the PA to do all the work, do you?

 

[s0c9]

The excessively loud ones, yeah....

...unless...

... You don't mean those presumptuous, entitled musicians, who show up with nothing more than a Sansamp / POD, and expect the PA to do all the work, do you?

LOL.. NO-o-o-o-o-o I meant the type that shows up to a wine-bar gig with a JCM900 100w tube amp or an ampeg with an 8x10 for bass!

 

[BurningSkies]

I've told this story a few times on here, but it warrants repeating. A few years ago, a friend's band opened for me. I was using my Mesa 400+ a lot in that project and my friend was very excited to play through it when I offered it for his set. As many of you know, the 400 series takes its DI signal straight off the output transformer, so you are getting 12 6L6s to the desk. Sitting in the audience during my friend's set was an eye-opening experience. The bass tone through FOH would not have been able to be replicated by an uncolored DI - no way, no how. The system wasn't anything mind-blowing either, just basic Peavey FOH. If an uncolored DI signal with no amp works for you, then that is great. But this idea that we shouldn't use amps because this, that, and the other is just asinine. Amps do impart colorization (that you may or may not desire) and it does matter to the overall FOH mix, so as long as the person behind the console is competent.

I've worked with a number of sound engineers, and the majority are great. The ones who have been problems were generally hacks. I've used DI boxes, DIs from amps, speaker-level DIs, and mics. All of the competent sound engineers were able to make all of those inputs work. I work with a number of sound engineers who get excited when I pull out the PR40 and prefer it to when the times I use a DI. Being professional and having good tone right out of the box helps. Bleed and other issues are way overblown in this thread: good engineers generally have a handle on things like gain structuring, HPF, LPF, gating, aux subs, etc. that minimize those issues.

Geez, as bass players, there really is a culture here of selling ourselves short.

As far as bass in the monitors, I've had some great bass reinforcement in wedges, but that is generally when working with large sound companies doing national concerts. The typical local cats running Yamaha club series monitors probably isn't going to have sufficient bass reinforcement and putting bass in the monitors will yield the dreaded speaker clipping and boxy bass sound.

Yeah, my DI is 'post' EQ and post 5 tubes and post a custom transformer or two. For all the 'you have to DI to the board pre stuff...I just ignore that sentiment around here.

 

[BurningSkies]

It's sound reinforcement : if something doesn't need reinforcing, don't crud up the mix by putting it in there anyway.

(That's not to say that some musicians aren't playing way too loudly, which just causes more problems than it solves).

But it does seem that some FOH folk have forgotten that it's sound reinforcement / augmentation, NOT sound replacement / alteration.

Yeah, some sound guys get this. Also, there's plenty of gigs where the FOH isn't really up to the task...that's where we gently suggest they remove the bass from at least the subs (sometimes all front end) and I just nudge my volume up a bit. But then, I don't have a 'regular' rig. Also, I can think of one 'circuit' club that often doesn't have enough lines at the board, or if they do, they don't always have the deep-bench for stage gear...It's way easier for me to match FOH volume and do it cleanly and competently for me than it is for a guitarist with a 30w combo.

 

[s0c9]

Yeah, some sound guys get this. Also, there's plenty of gigs where the FOH isn't really up to the task...that's where we gently suggest they remove the bass from at least the subs (sometimes all front end) and I just nudge my volume up a bit. But then, I don't have a 'regular' rig. Also, I can think of one 'circuit' club that often doesn't have enough lines at the board, or if they do, they don't always have the deep-bench for stage gear...It's way easier for me to match FOH volume and do it cleanly and competently for me than it is for a guitarist with a 30w combo.

Yup.. this is more often the root cause than "lazy" FOH folks as implied by some

 

[BurningSkies]

Yup.. this is more often the root cause than "lazy" FOH folks as implied by some

I hate the sound of the FOH breaking up when I know how clean and clear my tone normally is. Also, sometimes in smaller PA's congested or murky mixes are just due to having too much going through those speakers. I get the feeling that some smaller rooms are so proud of their PA's they just want to 'show off' that they can put as much in as they can and go as loud as they can. Your FOH flown K12's are great little speakers, and it's great that you have 3 per-side, but you can only get so far with them.