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Why cant we all read?

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#81
I practice about three hours a day, but I don't have a wife and kids. I also plan to make music my career.

In reference to my ninja-edit points in my last post: if you plan to make music your career, you need to read. If you are a hobbyist player, by all means do what you do and enjoy it.

:bassist:
 
#85
Tampabass said:
Brad, I think you often argue just for the sake of arguing.
It is true - who would be in the dark? the bass player who can't read. The more you know about music, the more you can apply that knowledge to your playing. You're saying that it's better to know LESS about music? You're better off as a musician that way?

The concept isn't that complicated.
Click to expand...

And I think people who say that aren't very bright. It's as if you're saying "I can't be wrong, Brad just likes to argue".
:D

I get tired of people like you who keep offering that opinion. As if I couldn't SIMPLY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID.
:hmm:

What you're now saying is that I agree with you but just want to argue which is simply bull. Okay? I didn't imply anything, I didn't infer anything, I said exactly what I meant. Here, I'll break it down for you:

"Okay, one reason: They've yet to understand how much learning to read music would do to help them appreciate, understand, and enjoy all things musical, including playing bass".

That may not be true. Think that's impossible?

"could" would make sense. Or "might". "would" is either naive or arrogant. My opinion again.

"And, yeah, they'd get more gigs, too".

Promise?
:D

I have friend who work less than I do who read. Explain that.


Some folks just prefer staying in the dark, and calling it light".

Some folks think their idea of light is universal. It ain't. I gave a real world example.


So you can continue with this "Brad just likes to argue" crap or you could acknowledge the counterpoints to your points. The ball's yours.
:cool:
 
#86
aborgman said:
Yeah... if you like practicing three hours a day don't get:

A wife
Kids
A mortgage
A full time career
Click to expand...

If his full time career is in music than, YES you can have a family, a mortgage, 2 car payments (last payment on one is next Friday), a house on the lake, more boats than I like to admit AND some pretty cool instruments. Practicing 3 hours a day is not a problem.
 
#88
JimmyM said:
takes time? yes. hard? please! speaking and spelling english is hard. reading music is nothing. my wife taught herself basic reading skills on the piano in a couple hours.
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I learned basic Japanese by reading a website in less than a week, and from my experience, reading sheet music was far more frustrating and dificult. even jaco said that reading is hard. To be honest, and definitely not proud, I go on the "I don't need to know how to read, I'd rather go the funky based groove playing style" road. And for now I'm quite happy with that.
 
#89
aborgman said:
Yeah... if you like practicing three hours a day don't get:

A wife
Kids
A mortgage
A full time career
Click to expand...

Uh, well I plan on settling down eventually, and I plan on having all of those things you mentioned. I plan on getting a graduate degree once I get my undergrad, which in itself would land me a full time career at a university if I wanted it. I do my 3 hours in addition to going to school more than full time, working part time, and having a mild social life.

It is possible, you just have be really good with time management.
 
#91
Brad Johnson said:
And I think people who say that aren't very bright. It's as if you're saying "I can't be wrong, Brad just likes to argue".
:D

I get tired of people like you who keep offering that opinion. As if I couldn't SIMPLY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID.
:hmm:

What you're now saying is that I agree with you but just want to argue which is simply bull. Okay? I didn't imply anything, I didn't infer anything, I said exactly what I meant. Here, I'll break it down for you:

"Okay, one reason: They've yet to understand how much learning to read music would do to help them appreciate, understand, and enjoy all things musical, including playing bass".

That may not be true. Think that's impossible?

"could" would make sense. Or "might". "would" is either naive or arrogant. My opinion again.

"And, yeah, they'd get more gigs, too".

Promise?
:D

I have friend who work less than I do who read. Explain that.


Some folks just prefer staying in the dark, and calling it light".

Some folks think their idea of light is universal. It ain't. I gave a real world example.


So you can continue with this "Brad just likes to argue" crap or you could acknowledge the counterpoints to your points. The ball's yours.
:cool:
Click to expand...

No point/counterpoint needed. Yet another tiresome thread on a subject beaten to death.

If you genuinely believe that learning to read music doesn't open doors for any musician, and that the benefits don't outweigh the costs, then I can't help you.
 
#92
shadow_FIX said:
if you plan to make music your career, you need to read. If you are a hobbyist player, by all means do what you do and enjoy it.
Click to expand...

This is close to my approach to any new endeavor - do what you need to do to reach the level you want to reach.

Regarding reading music, I learned the clefs a long time ago and find it useful but not necessary for a hobbyist level of understanding and enjoyment. When I play in a performance setting, sometimes reading the bass clef is a must (e.g. hand bell choir) so I relearn or improve accordingly. For much of the band music I perform, all I'm given is the treble clef for melody and timing and the guitar chords with a /'bass note' occasionally thrown in so this has little for bass guitar that would benefit from require sight reading skills. (For singing, being able to read the melody obviously helps a lot.) Here I get to either follow the letters or used what I've been able to learn of scales and modes to add some spice. If I'm given a bass clef, I'll use it to inform the bass line I work out. Learning the scales and modes via the clefs has been incredibly useful in working out an understanding and translating to the fretboard but not completely necessary to enable learning.
 
#93
In high school, I played tuba in band and could read music pretty well. I could site read very well- in fact, the 3rd time or so I site-read through a piece of music that was about as good as I was going to get playing it. I could not improvise a single note and my ear was terrible.

When I took up bass, I started with a teacher, who was pretty psyched I could read. One night, while working on "Mary Had A Little Lamb" I just quit - I was over it. On the advice of the pianist in our school jazz band I bought Dark Side of the Moon and started learning to play bass by ear. BEST MOVE EVER, I actually started to learn how to make music and really play.

My reading fell by the wayside, it is the kind of thing you need to keep up with or you lose the ability. Also on bass there is reading ahead to leave yourself in the right position on the neck, an extra wrinkle not on present on the tuba.

One thing about reading, and always the hardest part for me, is the rhythmic information in musical notation. That's the best thing about reading: it's why reading musical notation is so much better than tab. And why I think knowing how to read makes you a better bass player: it lays bare and makes explicit the sub-divisions of the beat. Sure there's lots about a rhythmic time feels that can't really be expressed by musical notation, but there is even more about the actual nuts and bolts of "play here, rest here, make this note this long and that note that long" that is extremely well expressed with musical notation.

Learning the notes on the staff is pretty easy, but dealing with ledger lines is PITA. Keys with lots of accidentals are also a PITA. Being able to work through the Standing In The Shadows book (it doesn't have tab) is cool, being able to play in the community production of "The Wiz" was very cool. But really in my normal gigs reading rarely comes into it, so my skills get rusty between reading exercises. And I could never site read on bass, I just have not done it nearly enough.

I don't think not being a good reader hurts my playing, but perhaps having already internalized the note and rest length/values has already helped me to be better? (Not that I'm completely on top of any three or four beat 16th note rhythm pattern you could write, but really it's the execution I'm working on now rather than comprehension.)
 
#94
groooooove said:
this is without any doubt incorrect. your demonstrating a fine misunderstanding of intervals, though.

is it a diminished 7th or a major 6th? the bass neck won't tell you that. if you think thats overly-technecal and doesn't matter, then you're even further demonstrating your lack of understanding of theory, because the function of 7th / 6th can be heard (even if its the same enharmonic pitch.)

i dont mean to sound all pretentious and stuff, but its true. for hobbyists, i agree, you can get by without reading. but for musicians, reading its pretty essential- while you may get by without it, learning it will enhance everything you do- you can learn more music, learn music easier, understand music a lot easier and quicker, ext ext.

i think a lot of people who learn to play without reading at first get intimidated by how hard it seems at first, then try and rationalize it by saying "look, i'm playing just fine in this rock band, no need to read here," but a lot of them fall into the hobbyist category, witch is all in all a good thing, i suppose. (i was in that position for a long time, but once i learned how to read i realized how ignorant i was being.)
Click to expand...

I would think that Kraig was referring to playing the note that was needed vs. actually naming the interval through theory.

Then again this could be one of those situations where the different sound of the diminshed 7th vs. the major 6th would be debated.
:cool:
 
#95
JimmyM said:
ever notice that the only people on earth who say the costs outweight the benefits are non-readers? i've already browbeaten people enough over being too lazy to learn how to read so i'll refrain in this thread, but never in a million years will you hear a reader say the costs outweigh the benefits. and there are way more benefits to learning how to read than merely being able to read a sheet of music. even if you never read on a gig in your entire life, the benefits greatly outweigh the costs, and the only people you will ever hear say the opposite are non-readers.
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I think that's a very weak argument.

In economics science there's a thing called self-selection. It is something you should always take into account while doing such cost-benefit analysis.

- The people that do read music tell you the benefits exceed the costs.

- The people that don't read tell you the costs exceed the benefits.

Conclusion: People are different and have different preferences, they measure both costs and benefits in a different manner. Those for which benefits exceeded costs, they chose to learn how to read. Those for which costs exceeded benefits, they choose to keep on playing without learning how to read. And THAT's why very few people who know how to read music tell you it isn't worthy.

For instance, right now I think the benefits exceed the costs for me (but it doesn't have to be such a rational or conscious decision in every case), therefore I'm learning how to read music.
 
#96
Tampabass said:
No point/counterpoint needed. Yet another tiresome thread on a subject beaten to death.[

If you genuinely believe that learning to read music doesn't open doors for any musician, and that the benefits don't outweigh the costs, then I can't help you.
Click to expand...

I don't need your help and if that's what you got from gleaning my posts vs. actually reading them, thanks for not helping. Your incorrect use of absolutes is the issue as I pointed out. You continue to do it with this post.
:D

Do you understand what the word "any" means? That would include all musicians. Your need to deal in absolutes nullifies your position.
 
#98
Lateralus_cl said:
I think that's a very weak argument.

In economics science there's a thing called self-selection. It is something you should always take into account while doing such cost-benefit analysis.

- The people that do read music tell you the benefits exceed the costs.

- The people that don't read tell you the costs exceed the benefits.

Conclusion: People are different and have different preferences, they measure both costs and benefits in a different manner. Those for which benefits exceeded costs, they chose to learn how to read. Those for which costs exceeded benefits, they choose to keep on playing without learning how to read.

For instance, right now I think the benefits exceed the costs for me (but it doesn't have to be such a rational or conscious decision in every case), therefore I'm learning how to read music.
Click to expand...

In music there is something called self-erection. It is when players without real skills, pump themselves up using huge exaggerations of their other abilities :D
 
#100
I can read music, but I don't think I could do sight reading and play just off the sheet without rehearsing beforehand. I think it can help and culture an intermediate/advanced player to expand their understanding and horizons concerning the instrument, but it needs to be in the hands of someone who is a decently seasoned player. Just because you can read music, doesn't mean you can tap like Stu Hamm or double-thumb like Victor Wooten...the skill has to be present as well.

I tend to be a "to each his own" kinda guy on this stuff....I'm sure there are some talented session bassists who read music and get a lot of work and those who get just as much not knowing a lick of theory, I'm not one to knock them on how they get the the job done. I tend to have concepts or sounds in my head that theory could help me extract with greater ease, thats what draws me to it.
 
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