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why do people call a skinny neck fast?
- Thread starter drewphishesp
- Start date
I think enough people notice the difference that it's a real thing, however it will still ultimately be up to your own play style and body dimensions (mostly in the arms/hands).
The US Airforce, when trying to design the optimal cockpit, tried to make it fit a person of average body dimensions. What they found is that by making the cockpit fit an "average human", they made the cockpit fit just about no one. That is because we're all so different!
If you think about how complex a human being is, our genetics, and how we develop in the womb, plus any injuries or developmental influences (posture, etc.), then I think it makes sense we're so different. Some people are geared more for climbing (long arms, shorter legs), or for running (long legs, short torso), or for standing their ground (stocky short limbed folks).
For me, I am a tall guy with a big frame with most of my height in my torso rather than arms/legs. I look like an average male if you scaled them up 20%. However my fingers are long and bendy (doublejointed). My play style is one finger per fret due to classical guitar training back in the day. It works for me on bass because of my finger length and flexibility--I have a good stretch.
All these factors for whatever reason seem to make rounder necks work better for me. The wider the nut, the rounder the fretboard needs to be. I think in the past this manifested as Jazz necks feeling better when they have a flatter radius and since many basses these days have flatter radiused boards I tend to stick to Jazz necks for the most comfort.
That being said, I've also played some vintage P necks and they feel great if they have that 7.25" radius and smaller frets to offset some of the girth.
My current main player is a 5 string with a 1.77 nut, and it works for me because it has a 9.5" radius and rolled fretboard edge, plus a narrow C profile and the vintage frets I ordered for it helps some as well I think.
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This. It's just practice. I have a bunch of basses with all different sizes of necks and transfer between all of them just fine without "losing speed"
it's just a matter of adjusting. For someone who only plays one bass, I think it would be harder to adjust.
There lies the big problem with this entire discussion. Words don't mean the same thing to everyone, particularly where the topic is subject to such a wide range of interpretation from the outset.
Tell that to Roger Sadowsky, Mike lull, Jimmy Coppolo and other boutique builders who all use flat sawn, single piece maple necks.
Don't often hear of these instruments having neck problems. I'd suggest that the quality of wood chosen is most important. In fact, I'd bet that some manufacturers laminate wood to try and minimize the bad inherent qualities of cheap wood.
I order all my necks with a "thin/fast," profile. That doesn’t mean "skinny." I only play 19mm string spacing so the neck is rather wide as I prefer a wider neck. My thin/fast neck is considered that because they are thinned from from to back meaning the thickness and profile shape of a neck from front of the fretboard to the back of the neck where one would place your thumb to play. The thickness and shape profile of a neck is very important to me.
For me there is a clear difference between playing a fat thick neck or a fast/thin one. ie: a Ken Smith feels like I’m holding a baseball bat compared to the profile of my necks or let’s say compared to a MTD which are again thinned from front to back and also the shoulders of the neck are more flattened thus making it faster at lease to me to play. Roscoe and Pedulla guitars also have very fast necks when compared to other manufacturers. With that being said, the profile of the neck would only account for 50% of having a fast neck... the action of a bass also has a lot to do with whether it plays fast which is the another 50% of the equation. You can have a thin profiled neck but if your strings are a inch from your 24 fret it would be pretty hard to do tapping technique, pull offs, sweeping arpeggios, fast jazz chops etc...
So a good set up is imperative. My action is always set at 3/32nds" (sometimes 2/32nds") from the top of the 24th fret (or last fret) to the bottom of the B string. My high G or C string is always at 1/16th" and my necks are very straight with almost no relief in them. All this without any fret buzz. It takes a very light touch and the right technique to play my instruments. Oh and in 25 years I’ve never had any neck problems. Just my two cents.
For me there is a clear difference between playing a fat thick neck or a fast/thin one. ie: a Ken Smith feels like I’m holding a baseball bat compared to the profile of my necks or let’s say compared to a MTD which are again thinned from front to back and also the shoulders of the neck are more flattened thus making it faster at lease to me to play. Roscoe and Pedulla guitars also have very fast necks when compared to other manufacturers. With that being said, the profile of the neck would only account for 50% of having a fast neck... the action of a bass also has a lot to do with whether it plays fast which is the another 50% of the equation. You can have a thin profiled neck but if your strings are a inch from your 24 fret it would be pretty hard to do tapping technique, pull offs, sweeping arpeggios, fast jazz chops etc...
So a good set up is imperative. My action is always set at 3/32nds" (sometimes 2/32nds") from the top of the 24th fret (or last fret) to the bottom of the B string. My high G or C string is always at 1/16th" and my necks are very straight with almost no relief in them. All this without any fret buzz. It takes a very light touch and the right technique to play my instruments. Oh and in 25 years I’ve never had any neck problems. Just my two cents.
I was taking lessons with Gerald Veasley once, and I was struggling with some technical material on my fat 6-string. He said "Here, try my bass" because he's an SR endorser. I picked up his 6-string SR and not only was the material easy, but I started goofing around easily sweep-picking and stuff. He gave a (somewhat sheepish) grin and said "It's almost like a guitar".
From that experience, I learned that Ibanez does indeed make fast necks. Some of the features that made it faster were: thinner neck (even if not as skinny as a 4-string), fret height (I feel like low frets are even faster than fretless because of the bounciness), responsiveness (this refers to the tension as well as the electronics - if your sound is popping out you don't have to dig in so much and get caught up on strings).
Ravi Shankar having amazing technique proves nothing. Stanley Clarke can play faster on upright bass than most bass players in general, but it is still true that upright bass necks are much slower than electric bass necks. Just the scale length difference alone limits how fast you can get from point A to point B in milliseconds, but the string height matters as well.
I could not disagree more. You prove my point actually. Having good technique is primarily using the techniques that best suits the instrument you are playing. Shankar's technique proves my point, in my opinion. It isn't the neck that slows most players down. It is their technique.
I can play as fast on upright as on electric and have done so for the past four decades, it's just a matter of playing with correct technique on the neck you are using.
But you are of course entitled to your own opinion and we can disagree certainly. All the best.
It doesn’t make much difference to me. I just work at it until I get to where I need to be. Commercially today there isn’t a whole lot of music that requires a lot of 12 fret movement. Some yes, but as the years have gone on, it seems like more and more we’re being relegated to quarters and 8ths on the root.
I find this very interesting. I find that I have to dig into upright strings much more to produce a solid tone which limits speed. Of course, I can alternate-pick the strings just as fast as my electric, but that only really works if I'm relying on the amp for tone. I know that this is possible, as Eddie Gomez sets his uprights up so that he can get great tone and shred the upper part of the fingerboard. But my doghouse doesn't have that great action in comparison I'm sure!
So, questions:
1. If you're playing a fairly fast piece like Teen Town, can you play it just as quickly on upright as electric? My answer: I might be able to work the upright up to tempo in a few weeks, but I would have to find some alternate fingering solutions and the shifts would be a bit slower. In other words, if I got the upright up to speed, I'd be able to play it on electric above tempo.
2. If you play a piece with a bunch of octave skips, can you shift your hand just as fast? My answer: I cannot, because the distance is physically greater with a longer scale neck. This is one of the reasons that violinists tend to play faster than cellists who can play faster than bassists in the classical world. Physics create physical limitations.
3. If you are playing 'above the 12th fret', can you play just as fast on upright as on electric? My answer: I cannot, because I suck at thumb position. In this case, I know that I'm an uneven doubler and that is on me as a player. But when talking about fast necks, one of the factors is the heel. In the higher fret positions, many people can play faster on basses that have a cutaway because they don't have to put their wrist in an awkward position. But on an upright, the heel is very high up in the construction, and we have to hunch over the bass and use our thumbs on the fingerboard. That factor alone makes it a slower neck in my opinion.
Kragnorak,
With respect:
I have played Eddie's bass (though not recently) and it's setup while good was nothing out of the ordinary. He had the strings at a normal height. I must say that this was back in the early 80's so I cannot speak to his current setup. Last I heard, he was simply renting basses wherever he was and doing the best he could with what he got.
Kragnorak - did you start on electric my friend? If so, I understand your comment about needing to dig in more to get a good sound. I never experienced this because my first experience was using pressures and the "dig" necessary to produce noise on the upright. When I went to electric I had to learn a whole new touch and had problems with control and playing evenly because my learned muscle memory was way too much for that teeny little bass. Interesting the differences - neh?
1. Never tried teen town on upright - so I have to be honest here, I am not sure. I have a confession about electric and upright. I only use upright fingerings on the electric. Maybe some would criticize this, but my teacher (a top local jazz player and orchestral principal where I grew up) could play blisteringly fast on both upright and electric using only one set of fingerings. When I took up the electric, I decided it was only a secondary thing so I never learned electric fingerings. Since it has never slowed me down, I tend to stick with it. Perhaps this is why I play about the same on both instruments. It actually makes switching back and forth really easy.
2. I tried it, no problem. But I started on upright so most things seem easier on upright >>TO ME<<. Of course YMMV. Octaves are no problem as long as you use good technique. I won't even go into the violinist - cellist - bassist thing other than to say I don't think most string payers in the classical world would agree. Things aren't necessarily faster because they are smaller.
I don't like the emphasis on speed that seems to dominate this discussion. There is so much more to good music than speed. Also there are other problems that you aren't taking into account with smaller instruments. For example - I tend to have very good intonation on the upright but when I switch to a smaller 34" scale fretless electric, I notice it is is easier to play out of tune and I need to pay closer attention to play in tune. But I think this is sue to the fact that I have upright spacing so ingrained into my muscle memory. Had I started and concentrated on electric, I would most likely feel the opposite.
If you think smaller instruments are easier to play fast, or well, or even in tune, just listen to 3rd year violinists, violists, contrabassists, and cellists. They all will play equally out of tune, inaccurately, etc. given the same skill level. Trust me on that one (For alas, I used to see it every day).
It is true that larger instruments require longer shifts, more hand strength, etc. but those differences will mean problems only if you are using only one yardstick of strength, reach etc. for all of them. Train using the proper reach, strengh, etc for each instrument, and the differences really do become minuscule.
3. Not trying to be a dick here but It feels to me like thumb position is easier than playing high on an electric bass by far, again perhaps because I started and focused so heavily on upright. It feels more natural and you have the thumb as an extra digit. You can really play very quickly in thumb position if you learn the technique.
I have spent quite a bit of time over the years working at achieving a good technique and making sure my bass was setup properly. So many uprights are badly set up that I have no doubt that players have problems that they needn't have if they only had the instrument in proper adjustment. This breaks my heart because I see players quitting the upright and when I play their basses, I understand why. I think my having my basses well tuned and properly maintained adds to the playability.
You know, before this develops into some kind of an argument, I have a theory here. Perhaps my experience is drastically different from yours because I have worked very hard on upright bass and not nearly hard at all on electric.
I think our opinions are based largely on our experiences. Mine are apparently far different form yours. I simply do not agree with your apparent assessment that smaller is faster, but that is ok. I am happy to respectfully disagree on this.
With respect:
I have played Eddie's bass (though not recently) and it's setup while good was nothing out of the ordinary. He had the strings at a normal height. I must say that this was back in the early 80's so I cannot speak to his current setup. Last I heard, he was simply renting basses wherever he was and doing the best he could with what he got.
Kragnorak - did you start on electric my friend? If so, I understand your comment about needing to dig in more to get a good sound. I never experienced this because my first experience was using pressures and the "dig" necessary to produce noise on the upright. When I went to electric I had to learn a whole new touch and had problems with control and playing evenly because my learned muscle memory was way too much for that teeny little bass. Interesting the differences - neh?
1. Never tried teen town on upright - so I have to be honest here, I am not sure. I have a confession about electric and upright. I only use upright fingerings on the electric. Maybe some would criticize this, but my teacher (a top local jazz player and orchestral principal where I grew up) could play blisteringly fast on both upright and electric using only one set of fingerings. When I took up the electric, I decided it was only a secondary thing so I never learned electric fingerings. Since it has never slowed me down, I tend to stick with it. Perhaps this is why I play about the same on both instruments. It actually makes switching back and forth really easy.
2. I tried it, no problem. But I started on upright so most things seem easier on upright >>TO ME<<. Of course YMMV. Octaves are no problem as long as you use good technique. I won't even go into the violinist - cellist - bassist thing other than to say I don't think most string payers in the classical world would agree. Things aren't necessarily faster because they are smaller.
I don't like the emphasis on speed that seems to dominate this discussion. There is so much more to good music than speed. Also there are other problems that you aren't taking into account with smaller instruments. For example - I tend to have very good intonation on the upright but when I switch to a smaller 34" scale fretless electric, I notice it is is easier to play out of tune and I need to pay closer attention to play in tune. But I think this is sue to the fact that I have upright spacing so ingrained into my muscle memory. Had I started and concentrated on electric, I would most likely feel the opposite.
If you think smaller instruments are easier to play fast, or well, or even in tune, just listen to 3rd year violinists, violists, contrabassists, and cellists. They all will play equally out of tune, inaccurately, etc. given the same skill level. Trust me on that one (For alas, I used to see it every day).
It is true that larger instruments require longer shifts, more hand strength, etc. but those differences will mean problems only if you are using only one yardstick of strength, reach etc. for all of them. Train using the proper reach, strengh, etc for each instrument, and the differences really do become minuscule.
3. Not trying to be a dick here but It feels to me like thumb position is easier than playing high on an electric bass by far, again perhaps because I started and focused so heavily on upright. It feels more natural and you have the thumb as an extra digit. You can really play very quickly in thumb position if you learn the technique.
I have spent quite a bit of time over the years working at achieving a good technique and making sure my bass was setup properly. So many uprights are badly set up that I have no doubt that players have problems that they needn't have if they only had the instrument in proper adjustment. This breaks my heart because I see players quitting the upright and when I play their basses, I understand why. I think my having my basses well tuned and properly maintained adds to the playability.
You know, before this develops into some kind of an argument, I have a theory here. Perhaps my experience is drastically different from yours because I have worked very hard on upright bass and not nearly hard at all on electric.
I think our opinions are based largely on our experiences. Mine are apparently far different form yours. I simply do not agree with your apparent assessment that smaller is faster, but that is ok. I am happy to respectfully disagree on this.
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For players who somehow grab the whole neck in every position, a thin/narrow/unfinished neck may perhaps feel "faster". For those who pivot on their thumbs it will make no difference, as regards what you can negotiate in terms of tempo. "Fast" here is not an objective quality, but more of a sales pitch.
I find that modern jazz necks 1.5" nut with a 9.5 or 10 inch radius much easier to navigate for me than say an older spec neck with a 1.62" or a 1.75" nut with a 7.5 inch radius
I suspect this is what most people mean when using this phrase...YMMV
