Why do people even pay attention to the "specs?"

[Steve]

you know, when i play gear that's talked about on here in an intelligent manner by people who have actually played it, i often find that my feelings about the gear are almost identical. i'm to the point now where i almost trust talkbass consensus enough to buy that way

Things I've bought sight unseen based on TB poular opinion:

Sadowsky VJ5 PJ5

Bergantino 322, HT212

Epifani T212

Avalon U5

QSC 2404

Ampeg SVPCL

SansAmp BDDI

Not a single complaint about any of that. Y'all are about the only source of info that I trust other than my own experience.

 

[thudfromafar]

I will generally buy amps/speakers based on TB info, AFTER the hype settles down.

Basses however, I've learned that I must play the exact bass before buying. I did buy a yamaha bb414 after so much positive review on here, and I'm pretty happy with it, but still, I'm definitely not buying anymore basses online unless it's custom, MAYBE.

 

[seamonkey]

Cracks me up every time I see manufacturers deny the viability of "Specs" and "Measurements" to back it up. Some sure spend a lot of time and effort trying to dismiss any science.

 

[Jerrold Tiers]

Cracks me up every time I see manufacturers deny the viability of "Specs" and "Measurements" to back it up. Some sure spend a lot of time and effort trying to dismiss any science.

For a manufacturer, specs are important...... how else can they tell if the product is the same this week as last week?

If "Mike the tester" has a hangover, do you want bad product to go out because he doesn't notice it? Or after you fire Mike for coming in late every day for 3 weeks, does the new guy "hear" what Mike did?

Crazy way to run a company...... You gotta know your stuff is consistent, and specs tell you that, if you have the right ones...... Those are probably NOT ones you publish, though.

But the consumer of music products has to be happy with sound, feel, etc, and reading the published specs won't help you with that. A crappy amp can have the same basic specs as a super-good one.

 

[seamonkey]

A crappy amp can have the same basic specs as a super-good one.

Same marketing specs.
But not the same measurements.
I guess that is where BGM gets to jump in and measure.

The honest amp makers, like those made to FOH systems that multimillion dollar tours bankroll on are going to have honest specs and measurements.

Home audio even has FTC jumping in.

Specs work in these branches of the industry.

Can't trash all specs because Bass Amp manufacturers trash them.

 

[Jerrold Tiers]

Same marketing specs.
But not the same measurements.
I guess that is where BGM gets to jump in and measure.

The honest amp makers, like those made to FOH systems that multimillion dollar tours bankroll on are going to have honest specs and measurements.

Home audio even has FTC jumping in.

Specs work in these branches of the industry.

Can't trash all specs because Bass Amp manufacturers trash them.

Beans...... seen it where the the same tests give the same range of numbers with both, and one sounds much better than the other.....

In fact, an amp with WORSE "specs" can easily sound better than one with "better" specs.....

I'm not gonna argue this with you, I'm pretty clear on where you stand from past posts..., but I have personal experience of what I say....

My position is that basic specs get you a sound-related product in the category you are interested in, but they can't guarantee goodness, unless they are quite different to the ones normally seen.

Specs don't guarantee performance, but performance validates specs.......

 

[Calaverasgrande]

the problem with both Decibels and watt ratings is that it is almost impossible to compare different manufacturers ratings. One cabinet may say it has 104db sensitivity. this is meaningless unless you know what the test conditions are. Is that band limited to a 1k tone? Broadband pink noise, white noise? I actually had a little argument with a co-worker about speakers until we realized I was talking about 1watt/1meter sensitivity and he was talking about 2.8 volts at 2 meters sensitivity (I guess thats common in old school hifi?).

Same for watts. How can you know if a watt rating is honest. Read the fine print. Does it say 300 watts at 40-16k for 3 hours or something like 300 watts peak! I have even seen one well known company give a watt rating at 350 watts for one cycle of 60 hz.
Both Ampeg and Mesa have used doublespeak when giving watt ratings on their amps in the past. They are not the only ones either!

frequency response ranges are useless. 40-16k? really. So what, my bass doenst do anything above 4k if I can help it! I have seen the frequency plots of a single driver in different cabs and they behave totally differently.
I would love LOVE for gear builders to publish frequency plots. Maybe anechoic/wall coupling/corner coupling. That will give you a rough idea of what it does.
Some cabs may in theory go down to 30 hz, but it wont be pretty. Other cabs only go to 45 hz but they give you a lot of that!

 

[R Baer]

Same marketing specs...The honest amp makers, like those made to FOH systems that multimillion dollar tours bankroll on are going to have honest specs and measurements.

For the most part, you are dealing with completely different end users here. Someone buying a multi-million dollar FOH is going to be a qualified engineer with the knowledge to understand very technical spec pages.

While you may understand very technical specifications, the bottom line is that the vast majority of bassist (or guitarist, vocalist, keyboardist...) don't. There is a fine line as a manufacturer of where to draw the line on the specifications. Too much tech speak and you have 95% of the players reading your manual scratching their heads because they can't make heads or tails out of the information.

Speakers are a good example. I would bet that there are probably 5%, maybe 10% tops, of the players here on TB that could make sense of things like T/S specs and frequency charts and make an informed decision on how that speaker will perform. Now, figure in what percentage of the bass market is actually here on TB. So, if a very, very small percent of your customers will actually understand the info, why include it. As a manufacturer of bass equipment, we want our customers buying the gear based on the way it sounds. The bottom line is that highly technical specs mean nothing to the vast majority of the players and even if you are one of the few players that does understand the specs, they still won't tell you if you will actually like the way that product sounds. Your best resource is word of mouth based on the experience of others with the gear you are interested in.

 

[JimmyM]

Speakers are a good example. I would bet that there are probably 5%, maybe 10% tops, of the players here on TB that could make sense of things like T/S specs and frequency charts and make an informed decision on how that speaker will perform.

if that. i still don't and i've been trying to make heads or tails out of it for a couple years. maybe if i had woodworking skills and could build the stuff, i'd get it, but me + saws = me - fingers.

all anyone wants when buying stuff is the basics...will this be loud enough? will i blow my cab? what do these knobs and jacks do? i don't blame them. and you don't want users to sit there scared to touch anything because they're confused.

 

[seamonkey]

For the most part, you are dealing with completely different end users here. Someone buying a multi-million dollar FOH is going to be a qualified engineer with the knowledge to understand very technical spec pages.

While you may understand very technical specifications, the bottom line is that the vast majority of bassist (or guitarist, vocalist, keyboardist...) don't. There is a fine line as a manufacturer of where to draw the line on the specifications. Too much tech speak and you have 95% of the players reading your manual scratching their heads because they can't make heads or tails out of the information.

Speakers are a good example. I would bet that there are probably 5%, maybe 10% tops, of the players here on TB that could make sense of things like T/S specs and frequency charts and make an informed decision on how that speaker will perform. Now, figure in what percentage of the bass market is actually here on TB. So, if a very, very small percent of your customers will actually understand the info, why include it. As a manufacturer of bass equipment, we want our customers buying the gear based on the way it sounds. The bottom line is that highly technical specs mean nothing to the vast majority of the players and even if you are one of the few players that does understand the specs, they still won't tell you if you will actually like the way that product sounds. Your best resource is word of mouth based on the experience of others with the gear you are interested in.

"We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology." Carl Sagan

It's slight of hand when manufacturers know better but won't publish measurements. Claiming that no one would understand them, or misinterpret them. Those keyboardist, guitarist and bassist could buy a beer for those that could interpret the specs for them and save a load of buying on the internet and being disappointed in what they get.

It's not rocket science to look at at a frequency chart for a cabinet you have, and one you're going to buy and know how it sound different. Heck, some bassist even read music.

Anybody with a PC can draw a frequency chart in an EQ plugin and play through it to hear how it sounds. Good head phones are a flat reference.

 

[JimmyM]

"We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology." Carl Sagan

It's slight of hand when manufacturers know better but won't publish measurements. Claiming that no one would understand them, or misinterpret them. Those keyboardist, guitarist and bassist could buy a beer for those that could interpret the specs for them and save a load of buying on the internet and being disappointed in what they get.

It's not rocket science to look at at a frequency chart for a cabinet you have, and one you're going to buy and know how it sound different. Heck, some bassist even read music.

Anybody with a PC can draw a frequency chart in an EQ plugin and play through it to hear how it sounds. Good head phones are a flat reference.

people don't care at this ocd-like level. they just want to plug in and have fun. you are a complete rarity in the mi buying public.

 

[seamonkey]

I'm not gonna argue this with you, I'm pretty clear on where you stand from past posts..., but I have personal experience of what I say....

I have experience also - and it matches the measurements.

I can predict how something will sound based on it's measurements.

And I have no special abilities.

 

[James Judson]

We need the federal government to step in here and regulate these marketing technics. It you want "specs" call up Bose. They don't play those games. They will tell you what to expect and then say "listen for your self". Their manual will tell you what to do if you need louder. Have you heard a Bose system. They sound incredile (incredible price to).

The internet is usually half wrong. I'm trying to figure out which half. Thank god we have TB. You guys rock. When you got the watts vs decibels vs impedance vs sound pressure vs voltsohmscapacitancepassiveinductanceactivetransincentives figured out, please post here so I can get smarter.

My $.02?????? When you match up Fender with Ampeg you will rock. Any other combination = you need to take some lessons to rock.

YMMV

JJ

 

[R Baer]

I have experience also - and it matches the measurements.

I can predict how something will sound based on it's measurements.

And I have no special abilities.

Just out of curiosity, but exactly what specs are you after? If you look at our VALKYRIE webpage, we list the specs that we feel are important to the vast majority of players. Exactly what information would you want that is not already listed there? (I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm actually curious as to what you feel is adequate information)

 

[JimmyM]

My $.02?????? When you match up Fender with Ampeg you will rock. Any other combination = you need to take some lessons to rock.

actually, for rocking there are a couple notable exceptions. the gibson thunderbird, the peavey t-40, and any hollowbody are acceptable with an ampeg. i would say the music man stingray would be an exception because of cliff williams, but very few people make stingrays sound like cliff does.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Just out of curiosity, but exactly what specs are you after? If you look at our VALKYRIE webpage, we list the specs that we feel are important to the vast majority of players. Exactly what information would you want that is not already listed there? (I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm actually curious as to what you feel is adequate information)

Hi Roger, not the person you were responding to but;
By way of an example your ML212
"Power Rating 800 watts
Impedance 4 ohms
Frequency Response 40hz - 8kHz
Sensitivity 100 dB"

The sensitivity figure is meaningless to me without some more info. Is that sensitivity broadband? 1k? 100hz? anechoic, half-space?
A freq plot like you see on microphones and PA speakers would be awesome. Does it just barely touch 40 hz or is it all over 40hz like white on rice?
I see some other guys spec ALL of their cabs as 40hz-12k. Even though some have 4x10" drivers others are 8x10" or 2x15". I am supposed to believe I will get the same low end out of a 4x10 that I get from an 8x10?

PS. I honestly do like how those cabs look. Make some 8 ohm versions and I may be knocking on your door. Let me know when these are available in the SF bay area!


I got to agree with Jerrold Tiers about two pieces of gear speccing identically but one sounding lame, the other great. Sound is 3d, specs are at best 2d, but usually one dimension.
There are some great bass amps out there that have terrible specs on paper. 70db signal to noise ratio, limited frequency response, intermodulation all over the map. Like...an SVT!

Another good example are condenser mics. If you believe the spec sheets those $100 condensers from pacific rim factories are just as good as a $3000 German mic. I dont see a lot of $100 mics in major studios. (okay a couple, they are virtually disposable!)

 

[JimmyM]

never saw a studio that didn't have a handful of 57's and 58's. they're used all the time for snare, tom, and guitar cab mics.

 

[Korladis]

actually, for rocking there are a couple notable exceptions. the gibson thunderbird, the peavey t-40, and any hollowbody are acceptable with an ampeg. i would say the music man stingray would be an exception because of cliff williams, but very few people make stingrays sound like cliff does.

Rics with Ampegs also rock, IMO. But that's just cause I like Rics. And Ampegs.

 

[JimmyM]

yep, you can add rics to the list, although i think a marshall might bring their charm out just a little bit more than ampeg, if this gentleman is any indication:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[R Baer]

Hi Roger, not the person you were responding to but;
By way of an example your ML212
"Power Rating 800 watts
Impedance 4 ohms
Frequency Response 40hz - 8kHz
Sensitivity 100 dB"

The sensitivity figure is meaningless to me without some more info. Is that sensitivity broadband? 1k? 100hz? anechoic, half-space?
A freq plot like you see on microphones and PA speakers would be awesome. Does it just barely touch 40 hz or is it all over 40hz like white on rice?

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that this extra info would be worthless to all but a very small percentage of our customers. To the rest, this info is either at best meaningless, or at worst, confusing. How many bassist really understand terms like anechoic or half-space? And, all that info still doesn't tell if you are going to like the sound of that gear when you fire it up at rehearsal. I still believe player reviews and word of mouth are best for that. During the prototyping phase, we certainly threw out some designs with "superior" specs in favor of another design that just plain sounded better. Now, you may be able to look at all that info and determine that those specs do, or don't provide you with the sound that you like to hear from a cabinet, but you are in a very small minority in that respect.

I totally understand your point of view, but IMO, most manufacturers really are trying to give out the information that we think the majority of our users can make the best use of.