Why do people even pay attention to the "specs?"

[JimmyM]

advertising people shouldn't write technical manuals, and engineers shouldn't write ad copy.

 

[Korladis]

yep, you can add rics to the list, although i think a marshall might bring their charm out just a little bit more than ampeg, if this gentleman is any indication:

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He has a fairly specialized sound, though (all mids, no lows or highs).

Sounds very rock, though, true.

 

[Implosion]

advertising people shouldn't write technical manuals, and engineers shouldn't write ad copy.

Although the result could be amusing as in technical mumbo jumbo meets too honest marketing

 

[seamonkey]

Another good example are condenser mics. If you believe the spec sheets those $100 condensers from pacific rim factories are just as good as a $3000 German mic. I dont see a lot of $100 mics in major studios. (okay a couple, they are virtually disposable!)

If the Ratings, Specs, Measurements were from honest companies you could believe them.

There's no regulation in this market.

Although there are companies who import Mics from overseas and test them then sell the ones that past inspection for a premium.

The mics that fail testing are sent back to the distributor or factory - but resold to under another brand. Sounds just like the tube trade. The good manufacturers get first pick and chose the best, and send back the rest to be resold elsewhere.

 

[seamonkey]

Just out of curiosity, but exactly what specs are you after? If you look at our VALKYRIE webpage, we list the specs that we feel are important to the vast majority of players. Exactly what information would you want that is not already listed there? (I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm actually curious as to what you feel is adequate information)

Bill Fitzmaurice site can show you how to measure cabinets. It's not tricky. It's AES endorsed. Outside face up, simple process.

If you have mid or high frequency drivers add on and off axis to the mix.

Then when it comes time to buy another cabinet - it's easy for someone to compare what they have with actual honest measurements to whats on a web site.

There is no such thing as "measure the same but sound different". It just means they didn't get measured right or the right measurements didn't get published. AES papers explain how to take and publish measurements.

 

[JimmyM]

seamonkey is right.

shhhh...dont argue...he's right. trust me on this...just nod your head and move on.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

There is no such thing as "measure the same but sound different". It just means they didn't get measured right or the right measurements didn't get published..

There certainly is!
You can have two cabs that show the same freq response but sound different. Lets say you have 4x10 from two companies.
They both show 40-12k response with the same curve. One may have poor phase response due to how the crossover is designed. It specs as flat, but when you play bass through it the mids sound smothered.
Some cabs will spec as mostly flat down to 40 hz or so but have NO headroom in that region. So they fart out with any aggressive EQ or forceful playing.

Frequency response is not the only spec. there is also time domain and phase to consider, as well as distortion.
I used to go blind comparing specs from different companies when I was younger. Mostly because I couldnt afford anything, but I could dream! When I got around to trying these ampegs, SWRs, Edens etc that all had similar or indentical specs on paper they all sounded different.
For instance a titanium compression driver sounds much different than a phenolic driver, though they both may spec the same, they have different ring modes and distort differently.
BTW all speakers distort, all the time. It's only a matter of degree.

 

[seamonkey]

There certainly is!
You can have two cabs that show the same freq response but sound different. Lets say you have 4x10 from two companies.
They both show 40-12k response with the same curve. One may have poor phase response due to how the crossover is designed. It specs as flat, but when you play bass through it the mids sound smothered.
Some cabs will spec as mostly flat down to 40 hz or so but have NO headroom in that region. So they fart out with any aggressive EQ or forceful playing.

Frequency response is not the only spec. there is also time domain and phase to consider, as well as distortion.
I used to go blind comparing specs from different companies when I was younger. Mostly because I couldnt afford anything, but I could dream! When I got around to trying these ampegs, SWRs, Edens etc that all had similar or indentical specs on paper they all sounded different.
For instance a titanium compression driver sounds much different than a phenolic driver, though they both may spec the same, they have different ring modes and distort differently.
BTW all speakers distort, all the time. It's only a matter of degree.

Not sure you got any proof there.
If you can point to any two cabinets that measure the same and sound different, I'd like to see the measurements. I don't believe they have been measured.

But lets say you have two cabinets that measured the same - but they sound different. Right there you know you got the measurement wrong.

You form a hypothesis that says you didn't include the time domain in the measurements.

To which you experiment. by measuring the time domain.

Now you can prove and others can confirm the time domain matters. You adjust the measurements to pick "phase" issue.

But the phase issue that some get so concerned about is not much of a problem these days. Back in the days when 5w high frequency amp was use to drive 11ft high frequency horn in a movie theater - yeah shifting speakers around mattered. Not much today, subs with satellites would be in big trouble otherwise.

Harmonic distortion of speakers can be measured.
Measuring at low and high SPL is also possible.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

If you can point to any two cabinets that measure the same and sound different, I'd like to see the measurements. I don't believe they have been measured.

First I would have to find two manufacturers that
a) give meaningful specs.
b) spec their cabs with the same measurements. As it is one company tells you sensitivity at 1khz, another uses band limited pink noise. Pretty much no company that I know of gives a freq response chart or waterfall or anything that approaches enough utility to really match cabinets. As it is we are stuck with "sensitivity at 1 watt 1 meter" and the plain jane freq response. Even with freq response some companies are comfortable quoting the 6db down points as the outer limits of what the speaker will do. Others give 3db down points.

But lets say you have two cabinets that measured the same - but they sound different. Right there you know you got the measurement wrong.

I thought we were talking about relying on manufacturer specs. I dont have the time our resources to do specs on all the cabs out there that I am curious about. Doubt Guitar Center or Gelb would let me come in and shoot pink noise through each cab at various levels to get a true picture of its response.

...the phase issue that some get so concerned about is not much of a problem these days. Back in the days when 5w high frequency amp was use to drive 11ft high frequency horn in a movie theater - yeah shifting speakers around mattered. Not much today, subs with satellites would be in big trouble otherwise.

not true, passive crossovers (the part that directs high freqs to the tweet, low freqs to the woofer and mids to the quacker) are well known sources of phase problems. Different types of ported cabs and horn loaded cabs have phase anomalies even within the bandpass of the driver.
Subs with satellites DO have phase issues. Thats why they have bass management systems in studios and why even relatively cheap powered subs have phase alignment knobs/switches.
I am sure your home theater setup with subs and satellites sounds great, very rarely have I heard one that could trick my ears into thinking I was "there". Why? Phase screwyness at the crossover.

 

[Jerrold Tiers]

Dunno about phase not mattering.........

if you have good frequency response but the time alignment is bad, it won't sound good (PA etc).

if you have good time alignment, but only fair frequency response, you are likely to get "wow" response from listeners.

if you get both right, it sounds very good indeed.

For a long time, the better the amp specs, the worse it sounded.... (again PA/hifi) it was almost a guarantee.

if you measure enough stuff, you may get closer. But that's pie in the sky....... the stuff in the marketing sheets is not what you want to see, and may not even be reality-based.

reality is that you get about 10 lines of specs, max, and anything more than that makes eyes glaze over, so it is never printed.

 

[will33]

I'm not saying all these companies should lead their marketing effort with a data sheet (yes, most peoples eyes would glaze over) but by God man, this is 2010, how damn hard could it be to put a little thing to click on to see a real engineers spec sheet....it could even be small and in the corner...away from whatever Johnny Skinnypants or Tatooed Metaldude is your latest endorser.

If somebody's gear is supposed to be so badass, what's so wrong with showing it to the 3% of folks who might get something out of it? The other 97% who'll be much quicker to drop their money on it wouldn't know what the hell they're looking at anyway.

May have answered my own question there.

 

[seamonkey]

I'm not saying all these companies should lead their marketing effort with a data sheet (yes, most peoples eyes would glaze over) but by God man, this is 2010, how damn hard could it be to put a little thing to click on to see a real engineers spec sheet....it could even be small and in the corner...away from whatever Johnny Skinnypants or Tatooed Metaldude is your latest endorser.

If somebody's gear is supposed to be so badass, what's so wrong with showing it to the 3% of folks who might get something out of it? The other 97% who'll be much quicker to drop their money on it wouldn't know what the hell they're looking at anyway.

May have answered my own question there.

+1 - it doesn't hurt to put it all out there.

That 3% that get it will get a lot a beers bought for them from those that don't.

There could be some actual meaty threads based on real measurements. Imagine that.

This bass market is too small that measurements will not actually happen. FTC won't step in. Consumers who need to rely on the gear for their gigs need to demand it.
PA gear can be trusted. Measurements are published. It works for bass.

 

[Jerrold Tiers]

Consumers who need to rely on the gear for their gigs need to demand it.
PA gear can be trusted. Measurements are published. It works for bass.

Ah, but DOES it?

maybe you could provide some specifics...... what SPECIFICALLY do you want to know, and, what does knowing each of those DO for you?

Give some examples of specific specs you want, and then explain how and why these particular specs make a difference to your playing, your sound, etc.....

Now, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that when you get down to it, most of the specs are actually not useful for that...... Specs CAN give some guidance as in "I want more power than that", or "This one might be worth trying at the store"..... or "I probably won't like that, I hate parametrics", etc.

People buy an SVT, or a GK, or a Markbass for reasons that are extremely difficult to reduce to a spec..... I mean REALLY hard.... If you are the guy who can supply the specs that will draw in the customers, you can make some serious cash, even in a small market like bass stuff.

let's see what you want..........

 

[five7]

Throw altitude into the mix. Here in denver you need double the wattage to get the same low end as sea level L.A.

 

[B-string]

I could read the whole thread but.....Db is a log scale. 50Db + 3 Db= not very notable change (if it could be percieved at all) 130Db +3 DB= a huge difference and harder to achieve.
My 2 cents and I'm done.

 

[Tim C.]

Throw altitude into the mix. Here in denver you need double the wattage to get the same low end as sea level L.A.

Are you serious, Clark?

 

[James Judson]

Hey Bstring. You got the math wrong. 53db is twice 50db. And 133db is twice 130db. Every 3db of change is times two. You don't have to believe me go find a physics or math major.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Revealing a lot of measurements can bite a speaker manufacturer in the buttock. Real-world measurements do NOT look pretty. The more detailed the data a manufacturer reveals, the more fault people will easily find in it, and the more they will question the manufacturer's competence. I assure you that fault can be found in virtually any real-world measurement. If the manufacturer wants to literally spend hours every day defending his measurements it still won't be enough, and in the end the thanks he gets for his disclosures will be losing more sales than he gains. In contrast, a company that reveals only the bare minimum specs doesn't throw a spotlight on the shortcomings of its products.

The expections that even educated consumers have about measurements is considerably more optimistic than all but the very best (usually very expensive) speaker systems can deliver. It's pretty much just manufacturers and really hard-core DIY guys who appreciate real-world data that shows impressive performance... and neither is in the market for new speakers!

I run a suite of many measurements just so I can "see" what a speaker is doing. Takes me hours. Then the algorithms I use to correlate the data with perception would take me pages to explain, as they are non-intuitive. The eye does not read a frequency response curve the way the ear hears it (even assuming one curve could describe the sound of a speaker).

If there is a discrepancy between measurements and subjective perception, then the measurements and/or their analysis is either incorrect or incomplete.

 

[Implosion]

Hey Bstring. You got the math wrong. 53db is twice 50db. And 133db is twice 130db. Every 3db of change is times two. You don't have to believe me go find a physics or math major.

That is not what he said. He said that going from 50 to 53 isn't that noticeable and can be achieved easily and going from 130 to 133 is hard (requires a lot more of power) and that it makes a difference. Which do you think makes a bigger impact to listeners: doubling the level of a quiet conversation or doubling the level of a jackhammer? Which one will make the audience to cover their ears and could therefore be said to have a huge difference?

 

[B-string]

That is not what he said. He said that going from 50 to 53 isn't that noticeable and can be achieved easily and going from 130 to 133 is hard (requires a lot more of power) and that it makes a difference. Which do you think makes a bigger impact to listeners: doubling the level of a quiet conversation or doubling the level of a jackhammer? Which one will make the audience to cover their ears and could therefore be said to have a huge difference?

Thanks for using your grey matter! Numbers are great but if you ignore how they relate to the physical world they mean very little.