Here's one of them... when he stops contorting his face, I'll tell you which one he is.
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Why do the session legends all use P basses? (SBL Video Discussion)
- Thread starter citizenchris099
- Start date
Here's one of them... when he stops contorting his face, I'll tell you which one he is.
Cab drivers use a Ford c-max or a Ford Crown Vic. It makes all the money in the cab business. Does that mean that we driving enthusiasts should only drive those? Does it mean that a cab driver can't use anything else?
One of the best cab rides I've had was in Scotland where a private driver served as cabbie in his E-series AMG. Sure as heck wasn't the standard but he made the drive more fun.
Industry standards are nice and safe. They are not however, the only way to go.
One of the best cab rides I've had was in Scotland where a private driver served as cabbie in his E-series AMG. Sure as heck wasn't the standard but he made the drive more fun.
Industry standards are nice and safe. They are not however, the only way to go.
In the studio, or anywhere else, if you are running the band and paying the bills you can use whatever instruments you want. When someone else is in control you sound and play like they want. That goes for every player in the band.
If you find a bass that will sound good in many genres with very little effort you'll use it. The Precision is that bass. You really have to have a special talent or work very hard to make one sound bad. They just work because the design is right. They don't leak into the frequency ranges of the other instruments. They are easily heard in the mix. Everyone in the control room knows how to use them and their sound.
All good reasons to use a P bass on a studio gig, but the main reason, as a bass player you are hired for what you can play, not for what you can sound like. Hobby players are all about the gear that gets them "their sound". Pro's can sound good on anything and "their sound" is the way they put together the bass lines.
If you find a bass that will sound good in many genres with very little effort you'll use it. The Precision is that bass. You really have to have a special talent or work very hard to make one sound bad. They just work because the design is right. They don't leak into the frequency ranges of the other instruments. They are easily heard in the mix. Everyone in the control room knows how to use them and their sound.
All good reasons to use a P bass on a studio gig, but the main reason, as a bass player you are hired for what you can play, not for what you can sound like. Hobby players are all about the gear that gets them "their sound". Pro's can sound good on anything and "their sound" is the way they put together the bass lines.
Studio engineers work of sound frequencies...not tones, they want a clean bass signal to record.
Any bass recorded flat is a basic frequency, lets assume all tone pots add nothing to the frequency for ease of example, so create a clean signal.
So we plug the bass into an amp and dial in our sound, then we add the effects and play.
In a studio situation the mic used will affect the tone as will the cabs used to monitor it with as will the engineers ears, its all speculative.
In a studio you record the bass flat, as if no amp was used because you will engineer that sound later.
You may have a top end four grand amp and cab to create your sound, but in a studio they have hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars worth of equipment to create your sound...they can do things with your signal that your equipment cannot even come close to.
If you want an effect, the effect will be added to the clean signal, as it would have been in your set up.
Think on it this way, it is the signal your bass produces that is worked with...not the bass model.
So in a studio it is the signal that is needed, not any tone attached to it.
Once the clean signal is recorded it can be treated in the same way as if it came from a bass, and as such can be modified using tone controls on the desk, or patching in any number of EQ devices or patches.
The same applies with effect, whatever effect you want can be added to the signal to create your sound, or the effect you want to hear.
Because the engineer is dealing in frequencies they will fit your sound to a frequency and add it to the mix, you bass sound has to fit in to all other recorded frequencies.
So to low, or too much bass and it may get lost within the bass drum and any keys left hand, and of course visa versa for those instruments.
The same applies for all frequencies that all instruments produce, any overlapping ones may clash and affect the instruments that create them.
In the end, for a bass sound, a clean bass plucked using a pick gives the easiest signal to work with and easier still if DI'd into the board and take the amp out of the equation.
For sure recording a live room situation is still a great option, but many things from mic placement to actual recording medium will impact on the sound you capture, and of course it needs multiple takes if there are issues, even technical ones not related to the band or musicians.
I have been in numerous live room situations where the final track used was not the best take....it was the one with the least issues that was usable.
In a tracking situation because ever signal is clean, it can be edited and mixed to exactly what was needed...no compromise needed...and made to sound however the producer wants.
I have worked in studios in the UK for over 45 years, sure the actual process is the same, but technology is the biggest influence i have seen, and at one point in the 1980's put many of us out of work. But it seems to be returning to musicians being used rather than producers cutting and pasting loops...even in my early days a tape cutter was a skill that took years to become good at....but like i said the technology is changing, not the process, which as such is to record what you hear.
Any bass recorded flat is a basic frequency, lets assume all tone pots add nothing to the frequency for ease of example, so create a clean signal.
So we plug the bass into an amp and dial in our sound, then we add the effects and play.
In a studio situation the mic used will affect the tone as will the cabs used to monitor it with as will the engineers ears, its all speculative.
In a studio you record the bass flat, as if no amp was used because you will engineer that sound later.
You may have a top end four grand amp and cab to create your sound, but in a studio they have hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars worth of equipment to create your sound...they can do things with your signal that your equipment cannot even come close to.
If you want an effect, the effect will be added to the clean signal, as it would have been in your set up.
Think on it this way, it is the signal your bass produces that is worked with...not the bass model.
So in a studio it is the signal that is needed, not any tone attached to it.
Once the clean signal is recorded it can be treated in the same way as if it came from a bass, and as such can be modified using tone controls on the desk, or patching in any number of EQ devices or patches.
The same applies with effect, whatever effect you want can be added to the signal to create your sound, or the effect you want to hear.
Because the engineer is dealing in frequencies they will fit your sound to a frequency and add it to the mix, you bass sound has to fit in to all other recorded frequencies.
So to low, or too much bass and it may get lost within the bass drum and any keys left hand, and of course visa versa for those instruments.
The same applies for all frequencies that all instruments produce, any overlapping ones may clash and affect the instruments that create them.
In the end, for a bass sound, a clean bass plucked using a pick gives the easiest signal to work with and easier still if DI'd into the board and take the amp out of the equation.
For sure recording a live room situation is still a great option, but many things from mic placement to actual recording medium will impact on the sound you capture, and of course it needs multiple takes if there are issues, even technical ones not related to the band or musicians.
I have been in numerous live room situations where the final track used was not the best take....it was the one with the least issues that was usable.
In a tracking situation because ever signal is clean, it can be edited and mixed to exactly what was needed...no compromise needed...and made to sound however the producer wants.
I have worked in studios in the UK for over 45 years, sure the actual process is the same, but technology is the biggest influence i have seen, and at one point in the 1980's put many of us out of work. But it seems to be returning to musicians being used rather than producers cutting and pasting loops...even in my early days a tape cutter was a skill that took years to become good at....but like i said the technology is changing, not the process, which as such is to record what you hear.
Music is a business. The more they can dumb everything down, the faster they can pump out the generic pablum and get on to the next Justin Beaver/Brittney Smears wannabe. It has nothing to do with what sounds best. That's why they want to simplify all the parts too. Not because it sounds better, but because it's quicker to make everything mesh, no need for thought or creativity.
No it means, "Let's use the best bass we can, that is the most effective. . . and is quick to set up".
Can't help but wonder: maybe artists and engineers, when they are "looking for a certain bass tone", are remembering what they've heard a thousand times? In other words, it's because they've heard a P bass on so many songs that it has become their preferred sound. It's what is familiar/comfortable. If Leo's first bass design was a Jazz, well... you get the idea.
It's also a matter of context - if you are a session/studio musician (a.k.a. hired gun), then you are getting paid to do what the artist tells you. If you are recording your own material, in a band or otherwise, then you get to choose your bass tone.
It's also a matter of context - if you are a session/studio musician (a.k.a. hired gun), then you are getting paid to do what the artist tells you. If you are recording your own material, in a band or otherwise, then you get to choose your bass tone.
Exactly. The easiest way out with no added work. The last part of the definition of "lowest common denominator" in Collins is "it has been deliberately made too simple so that nobody will disagree".
And I got told to put my Warwick Thumb away and play their Precision.
The P is a known quantity and folks in the studio can be set in their ways.
I think a lot of it comes down to the PB being good enough for what it’s needed for in a recording.
So while almost everyone acknowledges the importance of the bassline in a recording, that does not automatically mean they’ll want to spend a lot of time and effort on it when a KGS (“known good solution”) is available. PBs are familiar, easy to record, and sit well in your average mix without a lot of console fussing.
Studio time is also money. And recording budgets aren’t unlimited. I’ve generally found smart bands want to get the things that should be easy (i.e. drums and bass) done quickly and efficiently, and then put those time savings into additional lead instrument tracks - and especially getting the vocals just right. Vocals almost always require multiple takes and chew up the most time inthe studio.
This used to piss me off since I don’t consider myself a PB player despite the fact I own a couple and have played a PB many times over the last few decades. But I eventually got over it (and myself) and now just allow myself to enjoy playing whatever bass I’m holding. Life is too short to get hung up on that sort of detail. It’s all good.
(Minor observation: unless they’re in the superstar ranks, drummers will invariably use the kit the studio has set up and pre-miked in the drum booth. That doesn’t seem to bother drummers too much. Could it be that, when it comes to recording, drummers ‘get it’ better than we do sometimes?
)
So while almost everyone acknowledges the importance of the bassline in a recording, that does not automatically mean they’ll want to spend a lot of time and effort on it when a KGS (“known good solution”) is available. PBs are familiar, easy to record, and sit well in your average mix without a lot of console fussing.
Studio time is also money. And recording budgets aren’t unlimited. I’ve generally found smart bands want to get the things that should be easy (i.e. drums and bass) done quickly and efficiently, and then put those time savings into additional lead instrument tracks - and especially getting the vocals just right. Vocals almost always require multiple takes and chew up the most time inthe studio.
This used to piss me off since I don’t consider myself a PB player despite the fact I own a couple and have played a PB many times over the last few decades. But I eventually got over it (and myself) and now just allow myself to enjoy playing whatever bass I’m holding. Life is too short to get hung up on that sort of detail. It’s all good.
(Minor observation: unless they’re in the superstar ranks, drummers will invariably use the kit the studio has set up and pre-miked in the drum booth. That doesn’t seem to bother drummers too much. Could it be that, when it comes to recording, drummers ‘get it’ better than we do sometimes?
)
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I find it interesting that Prince couldn’t talk Gouche out of using his 5 & 6 string signature model MTD basses. Also the last bassist he was working with was Mono Neon and his 5 string Bass Mods. I think Prince respected those players so much that he just let them bring their sound to his own .
Gouche tells a great story about how Prince often questioned him about why he has to play “ the mutant” 5 string & that Larry Graham only bedded 4 strings. Gouche said he never forgot the look on the face of Prince during rehearsal of Purple Rain when at just the right moment he hit that low B and the earth moved.
Gouche showed him how dramatic and enhancing those low notes when used effectively can be.
It all come down to this:If you're a "hired gun"play what they want.
They are paying you.
If you're recording your own music play what YOU want.
You are paying them.
They are paying you.
If you're recording your own music play what YOU want.
You are paying them.
Yeah... if you are in a professional situation where you are asked to use a P-Bass, then you use a P-Bass.
I pretty much sound like me on whatever bass I'm playing, so if a specific tone is requested, I'd have no problem with that. (although, I do not own a P-Bass but the neck pickup on the Blacktop Jazz Bass, which is a P-Bass pickup in the Jazz Bass position sounds every bit of P-Bass to my ears)
I pretty much sound like me on whatever bass I'm playing, so if a specific tone is requested, I'd have no problem with that. (although, I do not own a P-Bass but the neck pickup on the Blacktop Jazz Bass, which is a P-Bass pickup in the Jazz Bass position sounds every bit of P-Bass to my ears)
I know who they are.
What I mean is WHO are they.
What they do means nothing to me.
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Are we talking bands or sessions? The two are being confused in this thread.
People in studio's probably are set in their ways. We can spread as much blame around as we want but, when recording a bass line, a P bass is so hard to beat that most people don't try. Then again, folks in studios only work if they are successful. If they produce music that sounds fantastic and doesn't sell they don't have a job, so they will stick to what the public wants to buy. "New" or "interesting" music usually has very low sales volumes and the guys in those bands will be holding down day jobs before long.
Unpalatable fact: the sound of a bass will never be important to the success of a record. Voice, melody, tune and arrangement are everything. Listen to a 50's or 60's record (a golden era of recording) on a car stereo from that period, you can't even hear the bass line! That's how important the sound of a bass was. You want to hear the sound of a fantastic, unique, different bass? Don't look to the mainstream recording industry, go to a gig.
I seem to remember that for many years Prince used a left handed bassist who played a 5 string Warwick.
Yes, I've owned and played Lakland, G&L, Reverend, Rob Allen, Carvin, Wilkins, and others - active, passive, 4 and 5 string. Don't own any of them anymore.
I have this discussion on here quite a bit: for thirty years, Ive always recorded direct no matter where I am hired. I come in with basses, plug into the house pre (which usually has a 12AX7 but not always) or sometimes direct into a channel and off I go, usually tracking in the control room with a visual to drummer (and sometimes not)....No one ever asks me "Where's my amp?" -- and this includes all the major stuff Ive done over the years.......I think Ive tracked with an amp twice in all that time, but this was to get more 'grit" for more aggressiveness, and it was still dual tracked, one of the tracks being clean.........
I recently had a conversation with a person on here because I stated that a B15 in the studio was irrelevant.....The person was miffed that I called it irrelevent...I had to think about this because I do understand that there are many folks that use amp tone in the studio (mostly and mainly rock players)....however, these bassists are usually not 'session players' who have to be bass chameleons on a moment's notice - they are mostly players that are confined to a handful of genres....in my case, and players like me, it is irrelevent: its always been bass to pre or board - track (and, like I said, this has been the case with the major stuff Ive done as well)
But good luck with this conversation on here.....The problem sometimes with TB is a tangent to @phillipkregg 's post earlier in the thread about "Anger Economy": Somebody comes on TB and makes posts based on their knowledge and experience (which is what TB is supposed to be about) and, instead of contemplating that person's historical point-of-view with a welcoming ear, the person will get labeled 'confrontational' and chastised and labeled a "know it all", "Egotistical Troll", or something to that effect instead of folks considering the Occam's Razor that the person just may know what they are talking about.....
I have decades of recording experience -- it used to be a big part of my income....but I decided after that last conversation that its not really worth bringing some subjects up anymore --- historically recording direct is one of those
(Sigh)
I think THIS is a fundamental issue and misunderstanding that gets in the way of bands sounding good.
Sound engineers, even crap ones like me, WANT THE BAND TO SOUND THE BEST IT CAN. Believe me. We have no possible incentive to stifling your creative vision.
We also know the space. If you're playing in a concrete box, that bass tone you perfected in the practice space might sound like an ice-pick in the ear at volume. Or maybe we know the PA, and how it turns everything below 60 into sludge whenever the bass player hits the octave pedal. I've been in both situations. Where the bass player wanted to send me to Guantanimo for not recreating the tone he perfected through boutique pedals and fancy DI boxes.
You don't like the PA? I don't either. You can talk to the owners, chip in for a new one, or find a magical sound-man who will perform acoustic alchemy. Hell, maybe the guy who runs sound for Taylor Swift could make it happen for you. But this suburban bar couldn't afford them, for some reason, so you got me.
Yes, nobody comes to a venue to hear the sound man. But that doesn't translate to "the guy who won't get yelled at if things sound bad knows better than the guy who will."
And when people refer to themselves as "talent" - that just sounds really, really pretentious. We're all here trying to create an atmosphere where people pay the cover charge and buy drinks.
