Why do the session legends all use P basses? (SBL Video Discussion)

[Rib 13]

Nice playing. I’ll agree it’s a “P” type sound, but that’s about as far as I’ll go. I’ll also agree that a P bass isn’t the end all and be all bass for all people

thanks (those are old blast from the past tracks for me)....and, if you were the client, producer, or whoever in the chain that said "Its not P enough", I would try something else....If nothing I had worked, at that point I would be thinking that this person just wants me to play something that says 'Fender Precision' on it, and Id call a few of my friends to see if they could bring one over to me (if Im tracking local).....Fortunately, its never come down to that: the G&L ASAT with mid pickup soloed in Series has provided satisfactory P-tone for me when needed since 1995

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I have this discussion on here quite a bit: for thirty years, Ive always recorded direct no matter where I am hired. I come in with basses, plug into the house pre (which usually has a 12AX7 but not always) or sometimes direct into a channel and off I go, usually tracking in the control room with a visual to drummer (and sometimes not)....No one ever asks me "Where's my amp?" -- and this includes all the major stuff Ive done over the years.......I think Ive tracked with an amp twice in all that time, but this was to get more 'grit" for more aggressiveness, and it was still dual tracked, one of the tracks being clean.........

I recently had a conversation with a person on here because I stated that a B15 in the studio was irrelevant.....The person was miffed that I called it irrelevent...I had to think about this because I do understand that there are many folks that use amp tone in the studio (mostly and mainly rock players)....however, these bassists are usually not 'session players' who have to be bass chameleons on a moment's notice - they are mostly players that are confined to a handful of genres....in my case, and players like me, it is irrelevent: its always been bass to pre or board - track (and, like I said, this has been the case with the major stuff Ive done as well)

But good luck with this conversation on here.....The problem sometimes with TB is a tangent to @phillipkregg 's post earlier in the thread about "Anger Economy": Somebody comes on TB and makes posts based on their knowledge and experience (which is what TB is supposed to be about) and, instead of contemplating that person's historical point-of-view with a welcoming ear, the person will get labeled 'confrontational' and chastised and labeled a "know it all", "Egotistical Troll", or something to that effect instead of folks considering the Occam's Razor that the person just may know what they are talking about.....

I have decades of recording experience -- it used to be a big part of my income....but I decided after that last conversation that its not really worth bringing some subjects up anymore --- historically recording direct is one of those

The trouble with such a post is the recording experience is different depending on three factors...in my experience, which are the studio, the producer and the engineer.

My experiences are very close to yours, and i have only one or two basses that i record with....despite what i play any of those track live with.
I can also add that i have never ever been happy with any bass tone finally used.
Let me also add as sideman playing for many different artists i rarely ever get a bass sound i actually like....it is what FOH decide the bass sounds like.
Add to this the the sound from my rig is normally at a stage level for FOH to deal with.
If i say "i cannot hear my rig", then the SMM will give it to me via monitors.

So SME will use their amps, board, and cabs to try and replicate my bass sound?
No they will not, they may try to...since i used to run 10s in my cabs, and my amps were tube, then their solid state amps and 12" or 15" cabs on stage (monitors) are not going to replicate what my rig does.

So the easiest thing to do live is plug into the board and use the monitors...no amp needed.....sort of the studio situation now as a live one.
So what size amp do i need to play a stadium?
Well it does not matter to anyone but me as FOH and SMM will be the sound...so from no amp to the best available are the options to choose from, and for ease i will choose no amp, unless i have a gear rider and they supply my needs.

In smaller venues such as clubs and bars where the actual stage sound is the sound, then rig choices and bass choices are vital as what you hear the audience will hear, but even then there are trade offs with other stage members and that is where frequency come in...finding a bass tone that will cut through and be audible...not loud, but audible and that means using frequencies not being dominated by other instruments on the stage.....that's why we can always hear a tambourine on stage...it occupy a very narrow frequency range that not many, if any, actually use ...so it is heard.

Sound is frequency and sound engineers deal in frequency, producers deal in tone and we have to bridge the difference as players.

 

[Rib 13]

The trouble with such a post is the recording experience is different depending on three factors...in my experience, which are the studio, the producer and the engineer.

My experiences are very close to yours, and i have only one or two basses that i record with....despite what i play any of those track live with.
I can also add that i have never ever been happy with any bass tone finally used.
Let me also add as sideman playing for many different artists i rarely ever get a bass sound i actually like....it is what FOH decide the bass sounds like.
Add to this the the sound from my rig is normally at a stage level for FOH to deal with.
If i say "i cannot hear my rig", then the SMM will give it to me via monitors.

So SME will use their amps, board, and cabs to try and replicate my bass sound?
No they will not, they may try to...since i used to run 10s in my cabs, and my amps were tube, then their solid state amps and 12" or 15" cabs on stage (monitors) are not going to replicate what my rig does.

So the easiest thing to do live is plug into the board and use the monitors...no amp needed.....sort of the studio situation now as a live one.
So what size amp do i need to play a stadium?
Well it does not matter to anyone but me as FOH and SMM will be the sound...so from no amp to the best available are the options to choose from, and for ease i will choose no amp, unless i have a gear rider and they supply my needs.

In smaller venues such as clubs and bars where the actual stage sound is the sound, then rig choices and bass choices are vital as what you hear the audience will hear, but even then there are trade offs with other stage members and that is where frequency come in...finding a bass tone that will cut through and be audible...not loud, but audible and that means using frequencies not being dominated by other instruments on the stage.....that's why we can always hear a tambourine on stage...it occupy a very narrow frequency range that not many, if any, actually use ...so it is heard.

Sound is frequency and sound engineers deal in frequency, producers deal in tone and we have to bridge the difference as players.

You and I sound like we are almost the same person

edit: like you, im also a 'transparent' player -- i can go through a PA system as a rig just fine (and have done so before with just a floor wedge as my personal bass monitor)....however, I do get that its not for everyone --- a lot of players out there arent like this - they have a more guitar-mentality in amp/cab value, they like the color an amp gives for 'their sound' and value the responsiveness that an actual bass cabinet provides -- and thats OK too, because we are all different. I never make arguments based on "Right" or "Wrong" because its technically all subjective --- I usually only debate what have been historical practices....Still, like you, I just provide raw data in bass for whoever is paying me - "My Sound" is not important --- often, what comes out at the end, isnt how I prefer a bass tone but if thats the way they want it, great

 

[Nevada Pete]

Of course, the people who are P bass players don’t have an issue with it, it’s no skin off their back. But not everyone likes P basses nor likes being told what instrument to play.

I agree that a simple bass part often works best!

I think we're in two different worlds here. The thread concerns itself with recording sessions. That almost always means there is an artist who is signed to a record label, or at least has some cash behind them to be able to afford making a recording in a bona fide recording studio. Its a very focused atmosphere (that would be one way to put it!). In a session, time is money. Unless, that is, you happen to be an artist who can book a lock out for weeks or even months at a time and know you will still be able to pay back your recoupables and make money on the recordings too. I'm not sure anybody can do that anymore. I just know I never got near sessions like that.

But the point is, unless you yourself are paying cash to the studio, to the tracking engineer, to the producer (if there is one) which happens to make YOU the boss, then you are an employee. Probably more accurately, an independent contractor. But your not the boss. That means nobody cares what you like or don't like. At all. Your there to do a job, quickly and efficiently. The job happens to be to lay down a proper bass line for the tune the producers happen to be working on. On time. On target. It's strictly business. In other words, if they say jump, your response is: How high do you wish for me to jump? Adding a sir in there doesn't hurt sometimes either, when appropriate. Yes, there may be light hearted moments and very satisfying moments. But you can never forget why you are there.

I'm no studio musician, but I have done a surprising number of sessions (I was always surprised, anyway). It was always when somebody couldn't make it and handed off the session to me (unless I was paying for it myself). Let me put it this way, I've showed up at studios for sessions like that and they wouldn't let me in! No problem. No problem at all. I don't have problems at recording studios. I'm supposed to be the solution. Not a problem. Ever. Even if they don't let me in I don't have no problem. I will say in my very limited experience at top tier studios 'at the time', there are a few things about sessions I learned real quick: 1) Bring a Fender Precision Bass strung with La Bella flat wound strings. 2) Shut up. 3) Mind your own business. 4) Stay out of the booth unless invited (I wasn't). 5) Pay attention. 6) Don't #$%$# up. 7) Don't knock over the microphones, bump into them or touch them in any way. Don't even look at them (except to make sure you don't run into one!). There's one more thing I learned which is: Don't trip on a microphone cable or catch one under foot. Yes, I actually did that! Oh, did I mention bring a P Bass, shut up, mind your own business and stay out of the booth?

Now watch Bass Viking tell me he is a major label recording artist with five platinum albums under his belt! Visit surgeon for them to remove my foot from my mouth! Opes. It's just I'm trying to say that for most of us, a session isn't there because we are there. We're only there because somebody asked us to be there for a specific reason. We try to please the tracking engineer and the producer any way we can including playing whatever instrument they want us to play if that happens to come up because 1) That's what we're being paid for, and 2) Their jobs and reputation are on the line if the product is not up to par. It's a very competitive business. Maybe its more relaxed if your an established session player. I was not. I just knew people who were and a lot of working musicians. These are the things they told me at one time or another, sometimes rather tersely. YMMV. I'm getting old as dirt.

I do know that the cutting lathe operators would watch the grooves being etched into the master disc from the 30ips half-track master through a microscope. They adjusted the spacing between the grooves that way. In a micro-groove recording, if there is too much low end it will throw the stylus out of the groove, and preventing that from happening was a large part of the mastering process at the time. There is something about a Fender Precision Bass that seems to facilitate this 'record cutting' process. And this I believe is what the engineers / producers were listening for, knowing what was required for the recording they were making to be usable as a vinyl record. These were the closely guarded trade secrets of the business.

 

[iomamo]

By the way, I'm so grateful that we have someone like Justin Meldal-Johnsen out there producing records. Someone with a deep knowledge of the instrument, who is willing to dedicate time to getting great bass tones, whether it's for him playing on the records or for that band's own bassist. As a listener it's notable and that dedication extends to the sound of the whole record.

Preference is one thing, but a "that'll do" approach to the bass sound isn't usually a positive sign in my experience.

 

[Rib 13]

Preference is one thing, but a "that'll do" approach to the bass sound isn't usually a positive sign in my experience.

I agree...Concerning the posts I was involved with earlier concerning P-Tone and using my G&L ASAT with mid pickup soloed in Series for P-Tone, I go back to what I said earlier: One of the reasons folks like P-basses is its simplicity...the thing with simplicity is that it also means its not 'rocket science'...a p-bass voicing is a series wired pickup in that P sweetspot.....thats it....Theres a difference between "that'll do" and "splitting hairs"

 

[bass12]

Along with money and an audience

Not sure what that means.

 

[bass12]

A P cuts through the mix. If there's a P bass on a record it's instantly recognizable and the bass is defined. Not as much with a J.

Funny, I would say the opposite.

 

[Rib 13]

1) Bring a Fender Precision Bass strung with La Bella flat wound strings.

Great post, and mostly true although I historically find that Stingrays are greatly preferred over the years... but even with Bruce Swedein I had tracked with a Jazz in the booth and occasionally in the great room after everything else has been laid <shrug>....I only quoted the above because its the only thing I disagree with (to a point)...I show up usually with 3 - 5 instruments, all with different string types and pickup locations because part of it is being ready for any situation and having a wide pallette to select from.....If you dont play with a pick, have some in your pocket because that will get asked quite a bit....... Im capable of getting a P-Sound with flats if needed.....oddly enough, my goofy little 1970 Sekova EB3 copy with flats I bought for 60 bucks has been getting a lot of time lately...this just happened at a different facility again last week....I would never use this thing live, but when I plug it in and ask "How's this?", both clients and studio owners light up over it <another shrug>

 

[Smooth_bass88]

I love these threads. Everybody gets upset when they get reminded that the mainstream recording industry loves a P bass.

I think he also said to opt for the simplest version of your bass line. Bet that isn’t a popular idea here either.

Yeah you're right. I mean, Sean's only been working with major artists since he was 16, and he's only played on a couple multi-platinum records, and co-writing a number one single? What's that. Oh, and the ability to transcribe solos? Anyone can do that (especially on this forum). And what, only one signature artist model bass? Yeah we shouldn't listen to his advice.

 

[Turnaround]

Part of the problem is our collective understanding of what constitutes a "session player". I'm guilty of taking some liberties with that term in my earlier post. Really, to me a session player is someone who is hired to do a recording session. They may end up as part of a tour (Leland Sklar comes to mind), or they may not play much outside of the studio. In either case they are recording bassists playing on other folks' recordings. Perhaps my definition is too broad and should only included those that make a living recording for other folk as a "hired gun".

To be fair, some of those I mentioned are not usually considered to be session players, even though they have recorded for other folks' projects. And even though Will Lee is famous for his work on Letterman's show playing a Jazz-style bass, he plays many different instruments, and has recorded with all kinds. Joe Osborne, on the other hand is famous for his recorded sound almost exclusively on a Fender Jazz.

But this thread is getting a lot of traction. Puzzles me though - I have heard of recording engineers requiring the use of a P-bass, but I have never encountered that, nor have any of my recording friends. Maybe it's a regional thing?

 

[oZZma]

Discussions like this are way I'm so glad I never bothered with session or cover work.
"How do we fix your tone?"
You can start by F'ing yourself.

Standing ovation.

 

[spencer096]

Not sure what that means.

it was a cryptic joke about "people-writ-large" not purchasing or attending music where the bassist is the featured musician.

kind of a reaction to this whole thread. session musicians aren't hired to be stars, they're literally hired to fit in. the p-bass fits in really easily in an environment where time is money. stanley clarke, geddy lee, etc...they define their music's sound...and i dont think that they hired session bassists to play their integral parts. we dont hold formula 1 drivers to the same standard as truck drivers (as someone used this metaphor as an argument against the p-bass)...if youre a truck driver hired to move cargo (i.e. a good metaphor for a session bassist's most likely job), a mcclaren isn't a solution.

if you're building a bespoke pair of oxfords, youre not going to use a baileigh mh-19 power hammer to hammer in the nails on the shoe's sole. the shoe is not dumbed down by not using the highest performance equipment. and neither is the music if a p-bass line that's "good enough" for music that doesn't feature the bass in any role. but if time is money, and an engineer and producer need to spend mroe time making a sound fit...even if it's a p-bass...the bassist who can know this intuitively will be the one that's more likely to be given another job.

i think the point of the video, and what they're trying to get through, is using the p-bass as a contingency plan. if the vision you had for the bass going into a session doesn't quite translate to the tape, having something that's essentially a universal bass donor is a godsend.

pretty sure this point's been made a bunch already tho.

 

[LadyLoveStingRay5]

I seem to remember that for many years Prince used a left handed bassist who played a 5 string Warwick.

Yep. That was Sonny T. But Sonny didn’t use the low B the same way Gouche did.

 

[Vinnie Boombatz]

I’m speaking to your ad hominem reasoning, which indicates you don’t have a point. Ol’ Gene has recorded multiple studio albums which mean he _is_ a recording artist. Doesn’t matter if You like the material.

The engineer works for me, not the other way around. Not the same for you? Ok. But that means you’re not a working musician. That’s ok, there’s room for all kinds of musicians here. As for insulting engineers, no I’m not. But they work for me and all of the know how to record a Rick vs a Presicion.

Oh, I’m sorry, you’re talking about real professionals? Funny, my tax return says I’m a professional musician. Not good enough for you? Ok. I’ll work harder. But I’m drinking fine wine and my wife is pretty stoked on her Xmas presents so I might have to sit here and think about why your opinion matters.

Taking another sip...

Semantics....oh, and you can write whatever profession you want on your tax return.

And I got a big laugh comparing yourself to Gene Simmons. That was a good one.

And as another member a few posts back stated, session musicians do what they're told, artists do not. That pretty much sums it all up. Not knocking the session musician at all, because damn, that's a badass skillset to have the confidence and chops to be able to walk into a session with little knowledge about it, but have the scope and versatility to accommodate any style of music and do it quickly and efficiently and without whining, crying or making excuses. I'm admire those session players who can do that, regardless of the genre of music and whether or not I personally like the music being recorded.

 

[hennessybass]

The P style bass has a natural sonic footprint. It sits in the mix of guitars, keys and drums without a whole lot of tweaking. Here you go Hennessy, Thanks!
View attachment 3265852

Dude, that’s awesome!
It turned out good! Nice work.
Love the natural and tort.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

You and I sound like we are almost the same person

edit: like you, im also a 'transparent' player -- i can go through a PA system as a rig just fine (and have done so before with just a floor wedge as my personal bass monitor)....however, I do get that its not for everyone --- a lot of players out there arent like this - they have a more guitar-mentality in amp/cab value, they like the color an amp gives for 'their sound' and value the responsiveness that an actual bass cabinet provides -- and thats OK too, because we are all different. I never make arguments based on "Right" or "Wrong" because its technically all subjective --- I usually only debate what have been historical practices....Still, like you, I just provide raw data in bass for whoever is paying me - "My Sound" is not important --- often, what comes out at the end, isnt how I prefer a bass tone but if thats the way they want it, great

A big part of my "make up" is I was classically trained for the orchestra, so my mind set is a very different one, i can just get on with the job with little of no personal fuss...just service the music.
That got me lots of work because I brought no "baggage", so I am happy with whatever anyone wants to do because I can play my parts without actually having to "hear" what I am playing...I have more than enough confidence in my ability to play the neck and know what I am doing will be OK out front, or to ever is listening to it.

I have in the past sat through hors of sound check because a guitarist did not get the amp on his rider, they gave him a Fender Twin instead of a Deville.
So after massive complaints, more moaning, even threatening not to play, we endured an over long sound check, rather than getting back to out rooms, chillin', having some down down time etc because this guitarist went through every combination that this twin and his pedals (that was the funny part he had pedals) could do until the doors opened.
Even then he was not happy, and at show time played the show like a petulant child, showing his displeasure of the guitar sound to all.
This continued after the show, even when people complimented him on his "great sound" he took time to tell them it was not great and explained why.

About a year later he was using a twin and espousing is greatness....says it all, I called him a "gear cripple", (now that's a thread topic) because his actual ability to play was hampered by his equipment...actually it was his attitude that hampered him not the gear, as was proven a year later.

I find players that seem to find the need for "right equipment" actually affects their ability to play, let alone perform, and that in my experience can be the same in a studio from all sides.

 

[Bass Viking]

I think we're in two different worlds here. The thread concerns itself with recording sessions.

True. For some context, I was responding to another post that said people on TB get upset when this topic comes up.​

But the point is, unless you yourself are paying cash to the studio, to the tracking engineer, to the producer (if there is one) which happens to make YOU the boss, then you are an employee. Probably more accurately, an independent contractor. But your not the boss.

Yup. Just like any job you have to do as you`re told if you want to get paid. ​

Now watch Bass Viking tell me he is a major label recording artist with five platinum albums under his belt!

LOL, I wish! I do a lot of home recording of my instruments though and post them on YouTube. Interestingly, the video that got the most likes and compliments on tone is this one with my Peavey Fury (Peavey`s version of the P bass).

 

[Lionel Albert]

All that everyone hates, a kind of PJ bass with a fifth string.

 

[Rib 13]

A big part of my "make up" is I was classically trained for the orchestra, so my mind set is a very different one, i can just get on with the job with little of no personal fuss...just service the music.
That got me lots of work because I brought no "baggage", so I am happy with whatever anyone wants to do because I can play my parts without actually having to "hear" what I am playing...I have more than enough confidence in my ability to play the neck and know what I am doing will be OK out front, or to ever is listening to it.

I have in the past sat through hors of sound check because a guitarist did not get the amp on his rider, they gave him a Fender Twin instead of a Deville.
So after massive complaints, more moaning, even threatening not to play, we endured an over long sound check, rather than getting back to out rooms, chillin', having some down down time etc because this guitarist went through every combination that this twin and his pedals (that was the funny part he had pedals) could do until the doors opened.
Even then he was not happy, and at show time played the show like a petulant child, showing his displeasure of the guitar sound to all.
This continued after the show, even when people complimented him on his "great sound" he took time to tell them it was not great and explained why.

About a year later he was using a twin and espousing is greatness....says it all, I called him a "gear cripple", (now that's a thread topic) because his actual ability to play was hampered by his equipment...actually it was his attitude that hampered him not the gear, as was proven a year later.

I find players that seem to find the need for "right equipment" actually affects their ability to play, let alone perform, and that in my experience can be the same in a studio from all sides.

dude, theres a lot of stuff I have been hired for over the last several years where theres no charts or numbers, no other players: its just me and a drumtrack at a specific bpm.......basically, Im being sampled for one-shots, parts, and phrases......the first time this happened was back in the early 90s recording parts for Snap! -- I used a Peavey Foundation and grooved to a track -- thats what I was asked to do - it all went into DigiDesign....over the decades this happened more and more........one composer even has a file called "Spazz Bass" with my G&L, fingers and slap.......apparently, Ive been on several HBO things but nothing I actually intentionally played --- just samples of me