Why do the session legends all use P basses? (SBL Video Discussion)

[drTSTingray]

That's one way to define a session player. In 1969 I was asked by an internationally famous artist to sit in on bass on a recording session he was doing. It was my first exposure to the world of "session" players. Not even any charts. We made it all up on the fly.

But I have been asked to record on other projects where I was not a part of a band, but was asked to record the bass part on a project. I was given charts in advance, but no rehearsals. Did that make me a session player? FWIW in all of the recordings I never used a P-bass. I was never asked to use a P-bass by an artist, an engineer or a producer. The only specification that was made was on one session where the artist asked if I would use my double bass and once when the artist wanted a Jaco-style but left the choice of bass to me.

So the original post asked "Why do the session legends all use P basses?" The answer is "They don't, not all of them". But maybe there is a problem with the term "session legends" in that we need to be clear about what we me by "session" and "legends". We are having enough trouble defining what a session player is, and there have been a lot of suggestions about famous freelance bass recording personnel that are known for using basses other than P-type. The very question is bait for disagreement and, judging from the number and nature of the responses, it has been a highly attractive bait.

Interesting - I do get the feeling there's a lot of over generalisation regarding the question of using P basses. I don't even know if it's correct - in fact it likely isn't - I mean some people would have you believe everyone buys Ford cars - well a lot do but VW (and previously Toyota) actually sell more - similarly some people would have you believe tomato soup is the only soup to have but Heinz sells loads of flavours.

It seems to me that some people have a personal preference for the P bass and then extol it as the only Bass - it has a lot going for it but has limitations also.

I'm pretty sure there are lots of other revered recording basses - after all a bass guitar is a fairly simple instrument to record - it's surely isn't rocket science (btw I've always recorded with a Stingray - sometimes with mutes engaged - they give a great recorded sound and sit in the mix just great).

 

[Rib 13]

That's one way to define a session player. In 1969 I was asked by an internationally famous artist to sit in on bass on a recording session he was doing. It was my first exposure to the world of "session" players. Not even any charts. We made it all up on the fly.

But I have been asked to record on other projects where I was not a part of a band, but was asked to record the bass part on a project. I was given charts in advance, but no rehearsals. Did that make me a session player? FWIW in all of the recordings I never used a P-bass. I was never asked to use a P-bass by an artist, an engineer or a producer. The only specification that was made was on one session where the artist asked if I would use my double bass and once when the artist wanted a Jaco-style but left the choice of bass to me.

I get what youre saying: its semantics....and youre correct that it is (part of the reason why I said I agree to an extent.)

So the original post asked "Why do the session legends all use P basses?" The answer is "They don't, not all of them". But maybe there is a problem with the term "session legends" in that we need to be clear about what we me by "session" and "legends". We are having enough trouble defining what a session player is, and there have been a lot of suggestions about famous freelance bass recording personnel that are known for using basses other than P-type. The very question is bait for disagreement and, judging from the number and nature of the responses, it has been a highly attractive bait.

also very true...although I'd rather have a thread like this on TB than "If Jaco only needed 4 strings, why do you need 5? " threads..........

 

[knight of ni]

although I'd rather have a thread like this on TB than "If Jaco only needed 4 strings, why do you need 5? " threads..........

We can salvage this thread though. How about "If Jaco only needed a Jazz why would a session player need a P" ?

 

[laklandplayer]

Dave Hungate used his 2 1962 P basses (Rotosounds on one, Labella Flats on the other one) on the Toto records and on Boz Skaggs "Lowdown" LP and used them on all of the hit records, TV shows and movies he played on in the 70's and 80's (the movies Grease, Sgt Pepper's and Arthur come to mind) Listen to some of his stuff, great sounding P basses when they were in his hands.

 

[Chickenwheels]

Dave Hungate used his 2 1962 P basses (Rotosounds on one, Labella Flats on the other one) on the Toto records and on Boz Skaggs "Lowdown" LP and used them on all of the hit records, TV shows and movies he played on in the 70's and 80's (the movies Grease, Sgt Pepper's and Arthur come to mind) Listen to some of his stuff, great sounding P basses when they were in his hands.

True. He also used a 64 Jazz and Yamaha BBs. As demands changed, so did he.

 

[Chickenwheels]

IIRC, Neil Jason was one of the first guys to take a Jazz Bass into NY studios. He met some resistance, but simply used the front pickup!

 

[charles Terrat]

I don't have a lot of experience in the recording studio, but my 2 basses are a p-bass mongrel and a j-bass mongrel. Live, I usually prefer the jazz, which has flats, but the precision, which has a 30 year old set of roundwounds, tends to sound best on "tape." If it ain't broke...

 

[Lionel Albert]

Well, the more I read this thread, the more I want a Jazz Bass.

 

[DirkP]

I guess Reggae can be called bass heavy music and the drums and the bass are the most important instruments. And reggae originally is purely studio music and dancehall music and never was meant as live music. Marley was marketed towards the european and US audience that was used to rock music and concerts.
None of the great session players to my knowledge ever used a P bass. Family Man Barret and the most asked session players not just in Reggae, Robbie Shakespear, both used Jazz Basses. In early reggae höfners are often found (hard to believe!).
I love P basses and own some, but "the studio legends ALL use p basses" is a very reduced view of the world of music and it is an ugly call for conformism. I don't know what is so special or desirable in acting like a hired prostitute not like an artist.

 

[JimmyM]

I guess Reggae can be called bass heavy music and the drums and the bass are the most important instruments. And reggae originally is purely studio music and dancehall music and never was meant as live music. Marley was marketed towards the european and US audience that was used to rock music and concerts.
None of the great session players to my knowledge ever used a P bass. Family Man Barret and the most asked session players not just in Reggae, Robbie Shakespear, both used Jazz Basses. In early reggae höfners are often found (hard to believe!).

Not surprising at all to me. Hofners are monster low end machines.

I love P basses and own some, but "the studio legends ALL use p basses" is a very reduced view of the world of music and it is an ugly call for conformism. I don't know what is so special or desirable in acting like a hired prostitute not like an artist.

When you are being hired for a session, unless you're the artist, you're not the artist.

 

[DirkP]

Not surprising at all to me. Hofners are monster low end machines.


When you are being hired for a session, unless you're the artist, you're not the artist.

But these session guys even had the impertinence to demand from James Jamerson - maybe the greatest P-bass player of all times - to play roundwounds and slap. But real artists like Jamerson don't follow these advices. It is as if some idiot would dictate which colors and brushes Picasso should use.
This kind of session-bass-players should all have been replaced with software long ago

 

[king_biscuit]

I don't know what is so special or desirable in acting like a hired prostitute not like an artist.

Because that's exactly what most of the P bass players who played on all of those songs in the various studios were -- just like any one of us with a day job.

But these session guys even had the impertinence to demand from James Jamerson - maybe the greatest P-bass player of all times - to play roundwounds and slap. But real artists like Jamerson don't follow these advices. It is as if some idiot would dictate which colors and brushes Picasso should use.
This kind of session-bass-players should all have been replaced with software long ago

Jamerson lost a lot of work when he moved to LA because he wouldn't "update" his sound. And, how many session bass players have had or ever will have the (deservedly) elevated status as the great James Jamerson, who invented the modern electric bass style/sound?

Why not show up and demand to play quarter tone lines over I, iV, V McCountry changes?

 

[DirkP]

Jamerson lost a lot of work when he moved to LA because he wouldn't "update" his sound. And, how many session bass players have had or ever will have the (deservedly) elevated status as the great James Jamerson, who invented the modern electric bass style/sound?

Why not show up and demand to play quarter tone lines over I, iV, V McCountry changes?

You're right, but this is just sad. I simply don't get the reason that these guys seem to be so proud of their opportunism that they broadcast it and lecture the world as if this would be a desirable state of things.
And it is not even true for a lot of music (Joe Osborn, Robbie Shakespeare, Bernard Edwards)
Shakespeare has played on 200.000 recordings!!! He never played a Precsion.
Among bass players list of the 100 greatest bass players of all time P bass players are a tiny minority...
https://www.bassplayer.com/artists/the-100-greatest-bass-players-of-all-time

Again I love love love P basses. It is not about this, it is about conformism meeting mindless throw-away music.

 

[king_biscuit]

You're right, but this is just sad. I simply don't get the reason that these guys seem to be so proud of their opportunism that they broadcast it and lecture the world as if this would be a desirable state of things.

I think they are just giving experienced advise to others who want to get in the side man/session game. There are plenty of people who can play, and contrarians probably aren't going to get very many gigs. The bass player is probably the last player in the studio who is going to get away with throwing his/her weight around and making demands from the artist. I know we all obsess over bass on TB, but the rest of the world doesn't care about us To borrow and rework your analogy above, it's like if Picasso (artist) demands a certain brush for a painting, and we (studio bass player) give it to him -- we don't tell him which brush we would prefer he uses.

 

[king_biscuit]

And it is not even true for a lot of music (Joe Osborn, Robbie Shakespeare, Bernard Edwards)
Shakespeare has played on 200.000 recordings!!! He never played a Precsion.
Among bass players list of the 100 greatest bass players of all time P bass players are a tiny minority...
https://www.bassplayer.com/artists/the-100-greatest-bass-players-of-all-time

Again I love love love P basses. It is not about this, it is about conformism meeting mindless throw-away music.

Bernard Edwards recorded a lot of music with a P bass (and a Stingray), and Joe Osborn tried to make his Jazz sound like a P bass. I don't know anything about Shakespeare. A lot of the guys in that list, either recorded with P basses, were band leaders/artists themselves, or in stylized bands where they were co-equals. The video that is the subject of this thread is directed towards side/session studio players.

As far as reducing conformity and meeting of the minds, we are going to have to stop playing I iV funk changes, I iV V country/rock/blues changes, ii V I jazz changes etc...

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I think this is Robbie.

You're right, but this is just sad. I simply don't get the reason that these guys seem to be so proud of their opportunism that they broadcast it and lecture the world as if this would be a desirable state of things.
And it is not even true for a lot of music (Joe Osborn, Robbie Shakespeare, Bernard Edwards)
Shakespeare has played on 200.000 recordings!!! He never played a Precsion.
Among bass players list of the 100 greatest bass players of all time P bass players are a tiny minority...
https://www.bassplayer.com/artists/the-100-greatest-bass-players-of-all-time

Again I love love love P basses. It is not about this, it is about conformism meeting mindless throw-away music.

 

[DirkP]

it's like if Picasso (artist) demands a certain brush for a painting, and we (studio bass player) give it to him.

This sounds convincing and is justified! If it is really about an artist having a vision and wanting to create something and the artist has an exact idea of what the bass should do and sound like in this context a good player would simply do that and not inflate his ego.
But real artists don't aks for the very same all the time and want to do things the same way over and over again because it has worked that way back then.

 

[DirkP]

View attachment 3270871

I think this is Robbie.

This isn't fair. In the Internet-times, you find pictures of everyone doing everything, at least once. You even find pictures of Jaco playing a Precision or a G&L...
At least on Talkbass.

 

[king_biscuit]

This sounds convincing and is justified! If it is really about an artist having a vision and wanting to create something and the artist has an exact idea of what the bass should do and sound like in this context a good player would simply do that and not inflate his ego.
But real artists don't aks for the very same all the time and want to do things the same way over and over again because it has worked that way back then.

Good point, and that does happen. Tony Levin gets hired for "his" sound, as does Pino, Flea (when he does side work), and there are others. But that is probably not the typical case. More typically, the bass is supposed to fit in with the drums in the track and fill out the sound -- and not draw too much attention to itself. It also helps if it's easy to record and mix, so that the artist, engineer, producer, etc., can spend time worrying about a bunch of other stuff. As humans, we seem to get used to things and resist change: e.g., not many quarter tone chords in pop music, songs with the same basic chord progressions over and over, same lyric/song themes, same instrumentation, etc... The P bass is just another cog in the wheel of musical conformity that changes glacially. As a human who resists change, I love the P bass sound, and unfortunately, I'm probably not going to reinvent the instrument like Jamerson or Jaco anyway

 

[DirkP]

oe Osborn tried to make his Jazz sound like a P bass.

This is a good example. He tried, but it doesn't work. And this is one of the things that make him special. A few month ago there was a thread about Oborn here. His son is posting. And it reminded me how as a 7 or 8 years old guy, San Francisco was one of the first singles I bought - already an "oldie" back then.
And I started to listen to it again. The bass sounds incredible. And he is an incredible artist. Even as a child the bass in this song left a mark on me. It's so melodic and his fills and choice of notes is remarkable.