Why does the bass sound terrible??

[31HZ]

Subwoofers suck. Totally ruined live music.

Subs are great IMO, but they need to be intelligently deployed, carefully tuned to the room, and utilized in a way that solves problems while creating as few additional problems as possible.

I occasionally run sound for shows with my JBL SRX8xx system, often around 500-750 people. I bring five or more 18" subs, run them in a cardioid array (primarily to keep "bass wash" off of the stage) tune them around any resonant frequencies, and keep the low end out of every channel except kick, bass, and floor tom.

I'm a weekend warrior at best, but I understand how to utilize the technology built into the system, and I know HOW TO LISTEN. I love making bands sound great just as much as I love playing bass.

And I get compliments on my sound all the time. Traveling bands routinely ask me to go on the road with them after a gig (at least if I'm using my own rig and can control most of these variables).

Point being, if I can do it with my limited skillset (i.e. not Smaart-certified, etc.) then there's no reason that "pros" shouldn't be able to do this in most venues, save for the instances where their hands are tied (poor subwoofer placement, etc.).

IMO, advances in technology is keeping professionals from developing their listening skills, and from utilizing solutions that involve utilizing critical thinking.

 

[claudel]

Maybe you should spend less time on talkbass and more time figuring out how to effectively use your gear in a live situation.

Perhaps.

But then I'd be missing all the "helpful" suggestions.

 

[31HZ]

View attachment 5372610

Doubt it.

Ha!

IMO and IME, Wimbish should NOT be sending a "clean" (pre-effects) signal, but the sound tech should be able to give him *plenty* of space in that mix -- what with only bass, one guitar, and drums.

.... unless (I repeat myself here) the subs are deployed without regard for sound, in which case there's not much hope for a good mix.

EDIT: More here: https://www.sounddesignlive.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/A_Practical_Guide_To_Bass_Arrays.pdf

And here: https://electrovoice.com/media/downloads/wp_subwoofer_arrays_v04.pdf

Below is a plot of two subs deployed at a typical "ends of the stage" distance from each other, likely at or around 75Hz.

 

[Bass Motifs]

Did they send a clean, unaffected DI signal to the board and let the (qualified) sound engineer take it from there?

Have no idea. I saw Doug Wimbish so know he was there. We were about mid way to front, and soon retreated to back. Sound engineers were centre of auditorium at the back, so great position to hear everything. Extreme was mixed better so as the night wore on it got more musical. But really they should have this right from the get go. It's a well used venue. We had fun of course, but they have one job...

 

[jaibeau]

When we play venues that run monitors from FOH. I log on their router/mixer to run my IEM’s..but first… before soundchecking, I go on the FOH mix and HPF at 60-80 with a -12db slope, then I LPF at 2k with a -24db slope. Anything in between I leave flat. If they’ll leave it alone, we’re good.

 

[amper]

I've been to 4 live shows in medium-to-large venues in the last couple of years. They included smallish indy acts, Ween, and the Cure.

In all cases the bass sound was insufferably bad, and in the same way: a subwoofery drone that shook the seats but had no definition, and no real sense of pitch. Clearly this was the work of the sound people and not the bassists.

All these shows were in Philly, where I've been spending my time lately, so I thought maybe it was a local thing. But my friend who went to a couple of these shows with said, "no, it's everywhere." He's a former professional touring guitarist, and he gets out more than I do.

What's going on? Is this your experience too?

Apologies if this has been complained about already ... I didn't know how to search for it.

10 to 1 odds the problem is poor sound system design coupled with poor venue acoustics.

Rooms need to be treated to reduce or eliminate standing waves but almost never are, subwoofer placement is critical but poorly understood by many amateur sound techs, and fewer people use high pass filters than should.

In my town, the local Boys & Girls Club spend tens of thousands of dollars upgrading their audio facilities, and the system was designed by a guy who runs a recording studio in the area. He's a great recording engineer, but he has little to no experience with live audio reinforcement (neither do any of his staff), so he ended up creating a system that is both totally overkill and has horrific resonances in the room—worst of all, there is a huge increase in bass response right where they built the sound booth, so you can't tell what anything in the house actually sounds like without leaving the mixing position and walking out into the house.

Which venues in Philly? It would be good to know.

For medium size venues, I can only recall the Trocadero (which I thought was closed?), the Theatre of the Living Arts (and I don't remember any issues with the sound system there, but things might have changed), and the one out in Upper Darby...the Tower Theatre, where I haven't been in probably 30 years or more. Also the Electric Factory (er, Franklin Music Hall, now), haven't been there in probably 20 years, either.

 

[amper]

As far as rock, this last year I have seen Osees, Guided By Voices, dinosaur jr and RHCP. Small, medium and large venues. All had exceptional sound, I was truly impressed. The Fillmore Philly was one of those venues, Union Transfer (Philly) another. It most likely is an issue with FOH operations ; sound systems and room treatments really have improved over time.

Those did not exist the last time I lived in the PHL area.

 

[amper]

A bad operator can make a great sound system sound terrible, but even a superb operator can only do so much, if a system is poorly designed. A poor operator and a bad system will never produce good sound.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

In my town, the local Boys & Girls Club spend tens of thousands of dollars upgrading their audio facilities, and the system was designed by a guy who runs a recording studio in the area. He's a great recording engineer, but he has little to no experience with live audio reinforcement (neither do any of his staff), so he ended up creating a system that is both totally overkill and has horrific resonances in the room—worst of all, there is a huge increase in bass response right where they built the sound booth, so you can't tell what anything in the house actually sounds like without leaving the mixing position and walking out into the house.

While there are some common points, yes a controlled studio environment and live sound are two different beast.
Many times people think that the big thick layered effects used on a recording are what they need to do live in room that is already adding way too much in the way reverb, slap echo, ect.

 

[Baker69]

I went a couple of years ago to Hillsong Christian Church in London, which for those who don’t know is held in the Dominion Theatre right in the centre of London. I never heard a single note the bass player made, every song was 100% overkill on the bass drum to the effect that it hit you in the chest and to a degree was mildly painful, in fact it didn’t just overshadow the bass it killed most of the instruments.

Unless something is done to educate these idiots, future sound engineers are just going to come through the ranks believing this is the norm and how people want to hear music at events.

 

[Drredplate]

I went a couple of years ago to Hillsong Christian Church in London, which for those who don’t know is held in the Dominion Theatre right in the centre of London. I never heard a single note the bass player made, every song was 100% overkill on the bass drum to the effect that it hit you in the chest and to a degree was mildly painful, in fact it didn’t just overshadow the bass it killed most of the instruments.

Unless something is done to educate these idiots, future sound engineers are just going to come through the ranks believing this is the norm and how people want to hear music at events.

I have heard what you describe many times.
One of the times was Fleetwood Mac.
Whom one might have imagined had a decent engineer.
I have heard The Who several times and the sound was superb.
I blame subs and the gargantuan powers available now from class D amps

 

[Drredplate]

@Baker69
Maybe since the offense occurred in a Christian event the sound engineer could be cursed.
Possibly along the lines of “The Jackdaw of Rheims”