Why does the bass sound terrible??

[Gervais Cote]

Here is my latest experience at the Montreal jazz fest on a large outdoor stage :

First show was a gospel choir and the bassist was using a Lakeland jazz fiver with rounds and with an inboard preamp probably with the bass turned up near the maximum.
In all instances, we couldn’t not hear any separation between notes even when he was slapping, just a big muddy mess of very low frequencies. It was horrible !

The show just after, on the same stage, was a "half" big band and the bassist was using a MIM Fender P (the butter cream one) with Fender flats and the sound was perfect. Punchy and clear, good separation between notes and not bass shy at all.

 

[LowendG]

I'm sure others have mentioned this in the thread, but I find that at a lot of shows the way the kick is mixed is a HUGE part of the problem. It seems that the norm these days is to try and make the kick sound like an 808, regardless of the genre. That massive boomy sound works for hip hop and other genres where that's the intent, where it is often the bass part, or any other bass parts are arranged to work around it. But you go to a rock show, or an Americana show, or reggae show, or whatever, and they mix the kick like that and it just swamps the whole low end. And because it's playing this one fixed pitch the whole time, suddenly you can't tell what notes the bass guitar or other low end sounds are playing - it's a blur, sometimes a totally dissonant blur. I hate it.

 

[Doug P]

My second post here, I saw a three band show not long ago, with STP as the headliner. Well a not advertised band from LA opened. That’s cool right ? Maybe a new good act to give support to. I think they took the FOH board from the truck, plugged everything up, and left the controls as was. It was so bad I almost walked up to the board to ask if they were going to fix the mix ! The absolute worst mix I’ve ever heard. Who knows if the band was good or not. The other three bands were great.
If interested, on U-Tube I saw a short clip of the Rush sound guys “ tuning the room.” They moved all thru the venue with an IPad or…. Checking the sound from recorded sound check off the FOH of that afternoon. Again, the band should control the sound and how it’s delivered to the audience. A poor mix of say again Rush, Yes, or…..has to have the bass sound “right.” If not, it’s not “them.”
So all bands, it’s your show. Make sure the mix is to your liking. I had a FOH tech ask me once if I was looking for a bass sound like Tool if I remember correctly. I said no just didn’t want to give you a bass heavy signal in hopes he could bring the bass up as to complete the mix of the band and venue. Well, hearing others, he too was liking the sub driven sound and didn’t think of what the band wanted. I don’t know if that was the right or best thing to do, what do you think ?

 

[scott sinner]

I had a FOH in sound check try to send my bass only through the subs once. I nicely noted that a lot of a bass guitar sound is well above the crossover point. He adjusted and was like ‘wow that does sound better.’

I tend to imagine that everyone he mixed before that sounded like mud.

 

[backin82]

I have issues with most live sound mixes, and its why I hate attending live shows. I play live shows often, but hate attending them as an audience member.

Most of them are WAY, WAY too loud for absolutely no reason. You can stand the furthest distance away in a corner somewhere and still be unreasonably blasted with sound. Its completely unnecessary, but seems like a standard approach for all live sound mixes, even in church. The oft-repeated stance is, "You really can't get a good sound out of this [1,000,000 watt] system unless you push it hard like this." Well.......why? Why not have an appropriately sized system for the venue so it sounds good at reasonable volumes?

Second, they rely WAY, WAY too much on subs (as others have noted). As a bass player, I hate it both as an audience member and a performer. Do not gate the heck out of me, then throw my entire signal to the subs. F that. I play the bass guitar, not the sub.

We need live sound reform.

 

[Deleted member 394512]

Didn't read the whole thread, but if it hasn't been mentioned, one influencing factor contributing to crappy FOH mixes is band management.
Road managers and band managers can get a little full of themselves, and order the FOH engineer to "crank it up", " shake the seats", or "make our band the one everyone remembers tonight".
In the 70's and 80's I worked for 4 of the largest pro touring sound companies in North America and Britain. On most tours I was directly hired by the band as their FOH engineer, and still had this occur numerous times.
There are only four outcomes in this situation.
1. Ignore them, and get fired.
2. Do what they say, regardless of the mess.
3. Tell them to f off, and do it your way. This one only works if you have a history with the band, or more sway with the members than management.
4. Throw down with the idiot, and settle it like Vikings.
Ask me how I know.

The great advancements in sound reinforcement technology only make it easier to do more damage and create a murkier stew.

Couldn't read the whole thread. Hurts my brain, too much BS.

Did you work with the Clair Brothers? I took all their old gear of their hands in 2003 ish. Wish I had that old RADAR rig and a few of the Midas Pro 04m's.

 

[faulknersj]

I've been to 4 live shows in medium-to-large venues in the last couple of years. They included smallish indy acts, Ween, and the Cure.

In all cases the bass sound was insufferably bad, and in the same way: a subwoofery drone that shook the seats but had no definition, and no real sense of pitch. Clearly this was the work of the sound people and not the bassists.

All these shows were in Philly, where I've been spending my time lately, so I thought maybe it was a local thing. But my friend who went to a couple of these shows with said, "no, it's everywhere." He's a former professional touring guitarist, and he gets out more than I do.

What's going on? Is this your experience too?

Apologies if this has been complained about already ... I didn't know how to search for it.

This is indeed an epidemic lol. Was there any pattern to the type of basses being played?

 

[shastaband]

I got to stand in front of the Grateful Dead’s Wall of Sound in 1974. Phil Lesh’s bass sound was incredible: punchy, loud, clear, and distinct (36 JBL D-140s). Every note was audible. Not a subwoofer in the house. Also saw Stevie Wonder in 1975. Sound was perfect. Everything was balanced and clear.

In some respects, live sound is often WORSE now than it was in the 1970s, even though the equipment is “better.” Perhaps it’s the lack of talented, sensitive sound engineers who know what music should sound like.

 

[Patrice B]

I’ve gone to three shows here in the old Montreal arena (the Forum).

- Sting: mud and even hard to recognize the songs;
- Santana: same
- Led Zeppelin with an orchestra: the worst of the three.

I think it was a problem of bad sounding space. I won’t ever go see a big show in an arena.

Now, « smaller » artists more local, almost pristine sound every time (Patrick Watson as an exemple). They are on small venues outside or inside (cabaret, churches) and except that sometimes I find it a little bit too loud for my taste, each instrument/performer is clearly heard » .

Latest one was Damien Robitaille in the « Cabaret » of the Casino and it was… perfect for me: just loud enough that you could feel a bit the music but the bass lines were clear as crystal!

Someone (just a friend enjoying music but not a musician at all) once told me that majority of people attending big artists shows (Gabriel, Floyd, Madonna) are there for « the experience ». They don’t care if the music is a muddy mess, they « see » and feel their idols…

We are unfortunately a minority, we musicians, in this showbiz world, IMHO etc…

My son, 21 soon, made studies in the music domain and sometimes he asks for a car lift to go at work: he cranks his music in my old Kia Rondo until the cheap speakers farts and the metal body almost rattles. Kind of funny for the people seeing a semi-old chap with a common family car sounding like a sport Honda or something alike … and my son enjoy good varied music apart this immutable phenomenon of « earth shaking and loudly muddy is good ».

 

[Medicine Man]

Part of why it is so prolific is because many people in the audience or the act want the kick to just be blasting. I have had acts that I mixed (in a balanced manner) complain the kick isn't hitting hard enough so many times. Many people don't understand that atomic kick is a trade off for clarity of everything else, but bass guitar gets smooshed the hardest. I've played gigs where they have a dozen subs and even the sub lows coming off the back of them on stage is way too much. Part is a matter of taste, and there is no accounting for people's taste.

 

[Bag of Lazers]

For the average non-musician listener, loud bass sounds = "good sound". Loud low end does have a way of making the listener feel enveloped, so places with a sound system like movie theaters and music venues think they have to crank it up to impress the audience. It's a little lazy because (as so many of us here know) some kind of high pass filter would tighten those lows and make the whole experience sound better. Most people don't spend as much time as we do thinking about how low frequencies work, including a lot of sound engineers.

 

[soulstew]

I got to stand in front of the Grateful Dead’s Wall of Sound in 1974. Phil Lesh’s bass sound was incredible: punchy, loud, clear, and distinct (36 JBL D-140s). Every note was audible. Not a subwoofer in the house. Also saw Stevie Wonder in 1975. Sound was perfect. Everything was balanced and clear.

In some respects, live sound is often WORSE now than it was in the 1970s, even though the equipment is “better.” Perhaps it’s the lack of talented, sensitive sound engineers who know what music should sound like.

I think there is also some pressure on engineers to make prominent use of the subwoofers, and to "impress" audiences with the power of the subs. I used to sell home theater audio, and of course the demonstration room was always rumbling with lots of enhanced lows. I gradually came to hate it most of the time. It was fine if you were trying to simulate a scene happening during an earthquake, but when it came time to reproduce music, the greater the need to hear what you paid for (i.e. the subwoofer), the worse and more artificial the music sounded.

 

[Relsom]

Unless we're the supporting act we usually bring our own PA and hire one of a handful of engineers that we work with. My spys in the audience consistently give the bass sound good marks... full, clear, & articulate. I was talking with our FOH guy at one of the last shows and was quizzing him about the use of HPF, subs, etc. and where he positions my bass in the mix. I was surprised that he said that he crosses over the subs at 120 and reserves most of anything below that for kick drum mostly and prefers to keep my bass guitar in the mains. That was counter intuitive to me but it seems to work. I was expecting bass guitar to be cutoff down to 80 into the subs, but no so.

 

[ThudThudThud]

I went to a show in a theatre a while back. Three bands: Two local bands, and a name headliner.
The first two acts sounded like junk because of the 'in house' guy doing the sound.
The headliner brought their own sound guy, and it sounded like he'd just lifted a blanket off the speakers.
Sometimes, the guy in the booth shouldn't be the guy in the booth.

 

[Drredplate]

I'm sure others have mentioned this in the thread, but I find that at a lot of shows the way the kick is mixed is a HUGE part of the problem. It seems that the norm these days is to try and make the kick sound like an 808, regardless of the genre. That massive boomy sound works for hip hop and other genres where that's the intent, where it is often the bass part, or any other bass parts are arranged to work around it. But you go to a rock show, or an Americana show, or reggae show, or whatever, and they mix the kick like that and it just swamps the whole low end. And because it's playing this one fixed pitch the whole time, suddenly you can't tell what notes the bass guitar or other low end sounds are playing - it's a blur, sometimes a totally dissonant blur. I hate it.

I saw fleetwood mac at Wembley arena. The kick drum over powered everything with the result you have described
It seriously detracted from my enjoyment the ticket cost me £70

 

[brocco]

I am the bass player and do our FOH. We do 1/2 of our mix song every gig. Bass is always the trickiest balance between a nice blend of stage volume, then just the right blend between sub and tops.

 

[JKos]

The headliner brought their own sound guy, and it sounded like he'd just lifted a blanket off the speakers.

Sometimes it’s the headliner’s sound guy that doesn’t care about the openers’ sound. I have directly witnessed this. Some good friends toured as an opening act for a very famous, long running band. The sound guy didn’t touch the board for their whole set (I was standing behind the sound booth). One of the guitarists wasn’t even in the mix the whole time. The sound guy was too busy talking to people.

 

[FRoss6788]

Sometimes it’s the headliner’s sound guy that doesn’t care about the openers’ sound. I have directly witnessed this. Some good friends toured as an opening act for a very famous, long running band. The sound guy didn’t touch the board for their whole set (I was standing behind the sound booth). One of the guitarists wasn’t even in the mix the whole time. The sound guy was too busy talking to people.

So true.

I think that's not only disrespectful to the opening acts, but also folks who paid to see the show. Sucks.

 

[DaveParker39]

That's the good old fashioned live nation mix... tweaked with a very hearty boost in lows and highs and mid scoop. Find it at your favorite major touring arena rock/outdoor ampitheater venue.

 

[Crispus]

As far as rock, this last year I have seen Osees, Guided By Voices, dinosaur jr and RHCP. Small, medium and large venues. All had exceptional sound, I was truly impressed. The Fillmore Philly was one of those venues, Union Transfer (Philly) another. It most likely is an issue with FOH operations ; sound systems and room treatments really have improved over time.