Why does the bass sound terrible??

[fishdreams]

All kinds of reasons.

First off, some bands and some type of music WANT the bass to sound like a vague rumble that you feel rather than hear.
Second, some room acoustics just suck, even if played at less than loud volume, with or without PA
Thirdly, in a city like NY (don't know if Philly is the same) a typical format is 3-5 bands on the bill for the night each playing one set with (if you're lucky) a house engineer at the controls. You can guess what challenge that posits to such an engineer, and has 10 minutes to figure out the stage steup, and then the first 10 minutes of the show to figure out what the music si, and how they play or what their sonic vision is of those strangers in front of him. So, as a musician and as spectator, you'll get the 'house sound', whether you'll like it or not.

 

[lordradish]

I really think there are some soundpeople who think this sounds good, thinking more bass is better. Two weekends ago, I played a synth show and during soundcheck, the soundguy keeps saying 'needs to be louder', which, as he was doing it, meant more mud. I finally lost my cool at the guy and I actually said, 'Look, I'm playing a bunch of synths and I'm covering a whole range of frequencies. There are 25 people in the audience, I don't want my set sounding like a bunch of muddy crap and I don't want it so loud that it's painful. Don't do that!"

I also think a lot of em have significant hearing loss.

 

[lordradish]

Modern mixing and composition seems to think a bass needs to be mixed as a tuned 808 kick, or a scooped & over compressed mp3.

Yep, this right here.

 

[Slevage]

This, so far, is the most accurate answer, IMHO.

I’ve been to several shows in the same venue.
Sometimes the FOH sound quality was great, sometimes horrific.
One time-3 bands, same ticket.
First two bands/mixes sucked.
3rd band (Warren Haynes)-same system EXCEPT the band swapped in there own digital board (and engineer). Sound quality was nearly perfect from the first song.

 

[groovaholic]

too much volume along with low end and sub frequencies mucking up everything

I saw Pearl Jam at Arco Arena in Sacramento several years ago.
The acoustics in that venue are/were horrible, and the opening bands sounded like a muddy mess.
I hoped that it would sound better when Pearl Jame came on.

When PJ hit the stage, the mix was thin and I was disappointed.
Everything sounded pretty clear, like listening to good bookshelf speakers, but the lower octave was absent.

Over the course of the first few songs, the low end came up gradually...and eventually started to get muddy.
So the lows were pulled back a bit, and Pearl Jam continued with clear (if not ribcage-rattling) sound for the remainder of the set.

What it showed me was a sound tech listening and reacting - and respecting the limitations of the acoustic space.
You can't shove too much low end into a poorly treated venue - but that seems like what's happening all too often these days.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

Many many years ago,

I am speaking of many years ago. Got a compliment from a patron when we were playing in a popular live venue. "Wow, your bass sounds so good, and I can hear your every note". The bassist and the sound guy was me, I ran the board from the stage, and I used a wireless on my bass so that I could do a walkabout and tailor the mix to the room. It does not have to sound terrible.

Club work, yes. Outdoors/Large hall, not so much. I've been to a lot of big outdoor shows, and played in a few. And it's always the same: The kick drum and the bass are loud and mushy, soloists who depend on a mic cue (thinking of horn players) go unheard. I've seen too many unattended sound console tables. I could go on. But know this: On a big show, you are at the mercy of the sound crew. How you sound is largely out of your control. Which, by the way, is why you always want to meet them ahead of time, shake hands, let them know you care about what they do, etc.

 

[JazznFunk]

These days, it's because the subwoofers are usually insanely over-used, particularly with indoor venues, and the kick drum is given precedence in the mix versus the bass. Most subwoofers in most mixes should have the low-end shelved to clean it up, but flabby low end that people can feel vs hear has been in vogue for way too long now. We have a handful of local, smaller outdoor venues in town which get pretty big acts and the sound is usually really good in terms of the bass.... because they're also not having to fight room acoustics, and there is a noise ordinance which keeps the overall volume level of outdoor shows below a certain insane decibel level.

 

[JazznFunk]

Does the public notice "mud" like us bass players do? I would think we are more critical??

In general, the public seems to go to shows to talk and treat it as a social occasion versus listening critically to the mix... and certainly to the quality of the bass tone.

 

[Altitude]

Absolutely.
I saw Sting and Peter Gabriel Live back in 2016
I was stoked to see two of my bass heroes on one stage
Tony Levin was horrifyingly inaudible sub woofer mud
But Sting, I assume, had a say, and his bass was clear as a bell.

It seems less a problem in smaller venues, perhaps they just don't have the woofer wattage to destroy the mix.

It's not just live either: Modern mixing and composition seems to think a bass needs to be mixed as a tuned 808 kick, or a scooped & over compressed mp3. Listen to almost any recent recorded & mixed music, Then pick a track from say the 1970s and witness how they used to know how it should be done.

the exceptions are when a group does an "old school" approach like the Dap Kings or Charley Crockett

I saw that Sting & PG show too and made the same observation.

Great post, I agree. I also think mixing bands in basketball arenas contributes to the issue, all sorts of issues with building sizes and shapes that aren’t intended to make music sound good.

 

[soulstew]

This seems to be the norm these days. I hate it. Over the last 4-5 years I've seen Mark Knopfler, James Taylor, Jackson Browne, The Jayhawks, Del Amitri, the Clapton Crossroads Festival, Bonnie Raitt, Tedeschi-Trucks, Soul Asylum, Gov't Mule and a few others. Taylor and Browne were a double billing, Jimmy Johnson and Bob Glaub, respectively, on bass. Never heard a single one of their notes. Some mixes were better than others--I could make out Glenn Worff's bass fairly well with Knopfler, ditto Hutch Hutchinson with Bonnie Raitt. Gov't Mule was much better than the norm. The only one that was crystal clear and completely natural-sounding was Tedeschi-Trucks.

I agree with those who say it has nothing to do with the bass, amp or player. It is the current trend in sound reinforcement. And it's not mainly the bass, as near as I can tell. It is that the kick drum is so artificially loaded with ultra lows that every whomp of the kick drum swamps everything with low end for a few milliseconds. Including even the vocals. It's a by-product of the rise of the subwoofer. Sound crews seem to be aiming for something other than a "natural" sound, and by that I mean the sound on the recording or the sound of the instruments themselves plus whatever dedicated amp set up the players use. Instead we get an extremely exaggerated amount of low end so that it sounds like a giant subwoofer-laden car stereo. It's a kind of acoustic sensationalism that makes me crazy.

Two days after the disappointing night with Taylor and Browne, I was at the Tedeschi Trucks concert, and my seat was a few yards from the sound board. I walked over and talked to one of the mixers about the disappointing mix at the Taylor Browne concert, and he told me I had nothing to worry about with T-T. He was right. Just when I had started to wonder if it was just me or my geriatric hearing, I heard a mix that was perfect in every way--fat and rich, but also articulate, and you could hear every one of those fantastic musicians.

 

[mrjim123]

Yep, a lot of sound guys care more about showing off their subs than they care about how you sound. That, or they have no concept of how a bass truly sounds.

That is why there is an HPF in my signal chain. They're not gonna get of that near sub sonic mud from ME.

 

[Altitude]

There used to be a club in Austin, in the 80s, called Steamboat. It was at 6th & Trinity, Maggie Mae’s was across Trinity and is still there.

Two things I remember about Steamboat:

1. They shamelessly ripped off the logo design from the Colorado ski resort and I always wondered if they had permission. Surely not.

2. The FOH killed in there. There was a certain engineer who knew how to mix the kick drum really loud but not boomy so it hit you in the chest but didn’t overtake the room. He would marry the bass to the kick with precision. It was a religious experience to see a really good band in there because they all sounded fantastic.

Alas.

 

[Doug P]

Yup. I’ve said the same my entire life it seems. I hate hearing nothing but rumble, no offence to Fender…..
When you watch the bass players hands and they are moving around the neck… but, no note definition….. just a low hummmmm, loud. If the sound tech / FOH is not your guy then walk out at sound check to hear. This has / is going on forever. You would think a bass player would know this and make sure it’s not an issue with him / band sound mix. Like Rush or not, can you imagine hearing Geddy like this ?? It wouldn’t be “them.” I’ll stop as many know all of this and if new to bass playing keep this in your mind, if the total sound mix is to muddy and too much sub, the audience will only point to you for it

 

[bherman]

This, so far, is the most accurate answer, IMHO.

Don’t agree, there are only 3 decent venues in my area and I’ve been to shows with outstanding sound quality and ones that were mud soup.

Edit: i’m sure there are some venues that are hopeless, no matter what, but that’s certainly not been my experience or I think what most people are talking about here.

 

[Altitude]

I don’t think we need to vilify subwoofers. They serve a purpose well if the engineers use them right.

It’s the engineers who don’t use them right who are the villains. I have a nice SVS sub in my home theater setup - if I were to crank it up way too loud and EQ the signal with a huge hump at 120hz it would sound like crap, just like these venues do.

 

[Neil Folkard]

This is part of it, along with where you are in the venue, and definitely FOH.

Peter Gabriel isn't someone who would pit on a show with poor sound, nor is Robert Fripp, but Tony Levin sounded awful every time I saw King Crimson and when I saw Gabriel. I doubt Tony would put out a crap signal.

That's interesting, a few people said the same thing when I last saw Crim at Massey Hall in Toronto, but he sounded great from where I was sitting. And this is not the first time something like this has happened. It seems like some of the issues come down to where you are seated in the venue; it's impossible for any sound guy to make everything sound great from all seats.

 

[Neil Folkard]

Yet again, I am so thankful that I rarely see arena, or even mid-sized hall shows, so sound is usually good for bands that I see. Clubs and smaller size halls, usually...not always, but usually, sound great.

 

[JazznFunk]

Two days after the disappointing night with Taylor and Browne, I was at the Tedeschi Trucks concert, and my seat was a few yards from the sound board. I walked over and talked to one of the mixers about the disappointing mix at the Taylor Browne concert, and he told me I had nothing to worry about with T-T. He was right. Just when I had started to wonder if it was just me or my geriatric hearing, I heard a mix that was perfect in every way--fat and rich, but also articulate, and you could hear every one of those fantastic musicians.

This was my experience the last 2 times I saw Jason Isbell & The 400 Unit here in Asheville. Jimbo Hart was still the bassist in 2022, and Anna Butterss (a fine bassist from Australia) was in the chair this year. While Jimbo's sound was huge, thick, and grindy, it was NEVER overbearing or flabby. The kick drum was punchy but perfect. Anna's sound was a little less upfront (I think because she was still getting settled in the band and laying back a bit), it was still perfectly present and punchy in its own way. What we hear out front is almost totally in the hands of the FOH for sure.... and I feel like a lot of 'under the radar' bands these days, particularly in the blues/rock and Americana/Outlaw Country vein tend to have much more natural sounding live mixes, at least in my experience. I've heard Tedeschi Trucks as well and they always have great balance.

 

[Gervais Cote]

Ban those damn subwoofers !!

+1 on this !

 

[Admiral Akbar]

I think some rooms are tougher than others, but I have noticed that rock and roll sound engineers have a fetish with the kick drum - as in the boomier and louder the better.

The bass can either EQ itself with more mids and HPF away from the kick drum (which then puts it into the sonic space of the guitars and keys) or just suck it up and deal. Unless it’s your gig or you have John Entwistle’s sound, you’re sunk as a bass player with these engineers, sad to say.