Why does the bass sound terrible??

[Guitalia]

Absolutely.
I saw Sting and Peter Gabriel Live back in 2016
I was stoked to see two of my bass heroes on one stage
Tony Levin was horrifyingly inaudible sub woofer mud
But Sting, I assume, had a say, and his bass was clear as a bell.

It seems less a problem in smaller venues, perhaps they just don't have the woofer wattage to destroy the mix.

It's not just live either: Modern mixing and composition seems to think a bass needs to be mixed as a tuned 808 kick, or a scooped & over compressed mp3. Listen to almost any recent recorded & mixed music, Then pick a track from say the 1970s and witness how they used to know how it should be done.

the exceptions are when a group does an "old school" approach like the Dap Kings or Charley Crockett

Yes. And it's intentional. I'm a class D fan because of the incredible power/weight ratio, but that technology has also enabled sound engineers to drive subwoofers to deliver stupefyingly punishing levels of bass. Maybe there's now a FOH hip hop bass preset that simulates the sound of cars with the boom.

 

[retslock]

“Medium-to-large venues” leaves out important details. I once saw Prince in Sydney at a very large all purpose venue. ‘All purpose’ being the venue’s marketing approach but in reality, a huge concrete cavern. The sound was awful. No doubt the promoter paid considerably for the staging and sound company but the venue construction and capacity was never going to help. Acoustics are rarely factored into venue design and often management politics interfere placing any possibility of good acoustics in the hands of the owner’s accountants.
The Sydney Opera House, amazing architecture that it is, was the victim of political blundering that was only remedied many years later with the expertise of two German acoustic engineers and at great expense to the City of Sydney.
There is a battle that goes on in large venues between getting the sound to the back seats and maintaining decent audio quality as well. High volume within solid walls guarantees mud.
I’ve told this story here before but it bears repeating. As the opening act for Gladys Knight many years ago in a huge hall in Melbourne, our (young) band laboured through a sound check with an engineer that did his best to educate us. We were way too loud and even after reducing our volume by a lot, we were still too loud but he realised it was an exercise in futility and conceded. As we packed our gear Gladys Knight’s rhythm section came out and started a nice little lounge room level jam. We were looking forward to their sound check and expected it any time. After a few minutes one of the guys looks up for the engineer and says something like, “Ok?”
The engineer nods and they all pack up and leave the stage. That was their sound check. The sound in the concert that night was immaculate.
Lesson learned.

 

[BlackCrow]

Most people that call themselves "sound engineers" at larger venues are more than likely roadies fiddling with the sliders and twiddling knobs on the boards, getting paid union wages, while making the show sound like garbage. At a local level the best I ever sounded was with a "sound guy" who was also a bassist in another band that we were friendly with and we had done multiple shows with. Made sure i bought him a beer before and after every gig.

 

[ctmullins]

Live sound at big shows these days is universally terrible.

Terrible.

We recently saw the Toto/Journey show at our local coliseum.

It should have been billed as “Deen Castronovo and his Relentless Kick Drum, with special guest Journey”.

 

[gstaats]

We run subs and mains for our sound. I run sound for the band when we're using our own PA. Subs don't ruin the sound - it is the operator that ruins the mix. I wouldn't run live sound without subs TBH. Why push the mains hard when you don't have too? I do agree with the comments of putting a HPF on all channels, even on the kick and bass to reduce mud and frequencies below what my equipment will reproduce well. No need wasting energy and excursion on what usually equates to mud anyway.

 

[perfektspace6]

Could be the venue, the mix, the preference of the band. Some venues are murder on the low end.

I think is less likely to the bass or the rig used at the level you are talking about.

 

[2tonic]

Didn't read the whole thread, but if it hasn't been mentioned, one influencing factor contributing to crappy FOH mixes is band management.
Road managers and band managers can get a little full of themselves, and order the FOH engineer to "crank it up", " shake the seats", or "make our band the one everyone remembers tonight".
In the 70's and 80's I worked for 4 of the largest pro touring sound companies in North America and Britain. On most tours I was directly hired by the band as their FOH engineer, and still had this occur numerous times.
There are only four outcomes in this situation.
1. Ignore them, and get fired.
2. Do what they say, regardless of the mess.
3. Tell them to f off, and do it your way. This one only works if you have a history with the band, or more sway with the members than management.
4. Throw down with the idiot, and settle it like Vikings.
Ask me how I know.

The great advancements in sound reinforcement technology only make it easier to do more damage and create a murkier stew.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

The last large venue show where I really loved the sound of the bass was Yes at the Borgata in Atlantic City in 2008 (I think). You could tell Chris was running the show and directing the sound because I could hear every nuance and feel the force of every note.

 

[Ekulati]

Old guy here. It's because the sound and concept of the "subwoofer" now permeates all of popular culture. Sound guys and gals all grew up hearing cars blasting sub frequencies from three blocks away, and thinking that's normal, that's what "music" supposedly sounds like.

 

[Groove Doctor]

If they would just HPF every mic on stage at 140Hz or even as high as 300Hz then most of this would go away in an instant. (Depending on the crossover frequency of the subs/mains).

Ambient sound on stage amplified thru subs = mud out front most of the time.


Had a mate (who was also a phenomenal sound guy) sit in with the sound guy at church. Sound guy muted bass and said to my mate “even now it’s too loud”.

My mate muted stage mics and my bass disappeared. Showed him it wasn’t my bass but his mix that was the cause.

 

[Budbear]

About 30 or 35 years ago I stopped going to big arena and big concert hall shows because no matter how much I may like a band, the FOH sound was almost universally abysmal. I’d have been happier if I’d been hearing the front man’s monitor feed instead. I did notice that only musicians in the audience took any notice of it. The rest of the people were happy to be in the presence of their favorite band/star while they played and sang, poor sound notwithstanding.

I came to really enjoy the “smaller acts” in smaller clubs. I always got my money’s worth.

↑
This.

 

[GazzBass]

The curse of the subwoofers.

 

[Bassique]

If they would just HPF every mic on stage at 140Hz or even as high as 300Hz then most of this would go away in an instant. (Depending on the crossover frequency of the subs/mains).

There's a small venue in my town where I often go see bands and I once saw the mixing board EQ curve and the sound engineer had HPF at around 200hz for the full mix. And the sound quality is usually quite good there.

On the other hand, I saw Tesseract live couple weeks back on a fairly big venue and the sound was good too. Can't say I heard the bass that well, but atleast it werent subby mush and had actually some good definition.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Oh yeah live sound is very often horrendous.
With subs going deeper and power cheaper, it got worse.
It's like sound people want bass to feel like a punch in the guts at all times.
Everything compressed more than the rest, gotta be loud.

You know the best tones I heard these last years ? Headphone concerts.
Perfect mix, well balanced mix and clarity for everyone.

 

[57pbass]

We went to see Duran Duran last summer in an outdoor venue. We literally sat in the last row of the upper deck.
The sound of the bass was so clear and defined.. I was amazed by this since I have experienced what the OP describes many times. John Taylor was using his Dingwall basses and there was a cabinet on stage but I couldn’t identify it.
I also remember seeing The Rolling Stone’s at Madison Square Garden and the sound was okay but when they switched over to the smaller amps for an acoustic part of the show the clarity improved dramatically.
My guess would be there’s just too much volume along with low end and sub frequencies mucking up everything ??

 

[DavidEdenAria]

Live sound at big shows these days is universally terrible.

Terrible.

We recently saw the Toto/Journey show at our local coliseum.

It should have been billed as “Deen Castronovo and his Relentless Kick Drum, with special guest Journey”.

In 78 i saw Journey...it was punishing loud overall....funny thing is Van Halen opened and the sound was well balanced...stacks of SVTs and a wall of Marshalls.

 

[Mark Karwan]

My experience has been that a lot of people are mixing the bass drum so loud that literally everything else sucks. It didn't used to be that way. More affordable subs/bigger systems in more venues used by people who think everything should sound like edm?

 

[BoogieZK]

I think the OP talks about shows he sat in, not played in.

It's the main issue now with medium to large venues... Subs are all over the place sometimes covering even the singer.
I really don't understand why because i go to shows to hear an artist not being blown away by subs.

But regular people are liking that, if not, the problem would have been solve a long time ago.

My cousin worked in a large PA rental and told me that most Artist sound guys ... are deaf.
And when he test the gear before renting it, he can achieve Hifi sound, at least really good sound.

He rented for a large band, The Prodigy if i recall and the artist soundguy forgot to turn on the PA fronts so all that was runing was Subs and stage monitors.
After few songs, my cousin went to the board and told him to turn on fronts... This real good sound engineer did not noticed.

 

[Rojd]

Maybe there's now a FOH hip hop bass preset that simulates the sound of cars with the boom.

I remember about 35 years ago when I first started seeing cars with these subwoofers that would shake the ground blocks away. I heard them being called "trunk-a-phunk", lol.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

I've been to 4 live shows in medium-to-large venues in the last couple of years. They included smallish indy acts, Ween, and the Cure.

In all cases the bass sound was insufferably bad, and in the same way: a subwoofery drone that shook the seats but had no definition, and no real sense of pitch. Clearly this was the work of the sound people and not the bassists.

All these shows were in Philly, where I've been spending my time lately, so I thought maybe it was a local thing. But my friend who went to a couple of these shows with said, "no, it's everywhere." He's a former professional touring guitarist, and he gets out more than I do.

What's going on? Is this your experience too?

Apologies if this has been complained about already ... I didn't know how to search for it.

Hi Paul, I can't help but wonder if there's a generational thing being played out here.

What music influences your bass sound/tones?

Where were you standing when listening to these bands?

I would hazard a guess that most people 25+ years younger than me would be influenced by, what I'd call contemporary music.
It's my experience that bass tones over the last 30 - 40 years have changed drastically.
Today's bass is so hifi, mid and top end focused and in many cases, technical. Techniques that possibly dont shine through in the lower registers.
Perhaps growing up through this era has conditioned your hearing and tastes, as indeed my conditions did with me.

Im always going to gigs, concerts and festivals. My experience is the polar opposite to yours... Modern day bands of many genres, and I'm flabbergasted by how much bass there ISNT. The lack of bass has turned a potentially great rocking band into a bunch of Whimpy Disney Punks.

The 60s and 70s, when bands like the Cure were learning their chops, were a time when bass, for a large part of the music industry, wasn't super technical and wasn't super hifi, top, mid focused... bass was "all about the bass." Of course there are some exceptions to this over generalised observation.

Perhaps, you're not used to this qualitative and quantitative change and experience?

I don't have a definitive answer for you, but this was the first thought that popped into my head... feel free to, or not to, ponder the possibility.

Have a good one.