• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Why don't club drummers embrace electronic kits more often?

#181
I like the digital cymbals if tweaked and 'learned'....

Raise your hand if you've played with a drummer with a big old thick Z ride and they play it with the shoulder of the stick instead of bead.....then it builds up that freaking doppler effect roar that nukes your hearing....
 
#182
A heavy handed music director dictated mesh head triggers and zildjian gen16s where i was running sound. If i hadnt quit after his first day as my new boss, I would have after the Gen16's. They sounded like gated white noise. One of the drummers in rotation was a pro. I asked him if we could get any meat out of the gen16's and he said no, he wasnt a fan either.
 
#183
There's plenty of people stating the obvious in that good drummers can play well at any volume using dynamics, 'rods or other things. There are also people stating that electronic kits don't sound nearly as good as acoustic kits however something else is also obvious......

Some drummers just can't (or won't) play softly when it's needed......... for these people an electronic kits sounds dramatically better than any acoustic kit in a quiet room. When all you can hear is the drums during a song and crickets between songs (as everyone has left) then something needs to be done.

JGbassman said:
If you say anything to him, he pouts and says they shouldn't have live music then.
Click to expand...
And i'll bet he's also the kind of person that complains about there not being enough live music venues and that the ones that are around don't pay enough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JGbassman
#184
Gilmourisgod said:
Beyond the cost of an e-drum set itself, how are they amplifying it? DI into a house PA? Standard bass or guitar amps? If it's the drum kit plus an amp and speaker cabs, I can see how it would get pricey quick.
Click to expand...

With the first system I put together, the drummer wanted to run a stereo mix from his sound module. His reason was primarily so he had less stuff to plug in. He assumed he could balance the mix as effectively as I could with the mixing console. Everything was direct to the mixer and everyone was in IEMs except the vocalist.

I expected the stereo E-drum mix to fail and it pretty much did. All band members complained non-stop about the E-drums on the first tour. I told everyone to talk to the drummer about problems, but I did everything I could to help him dial in the system. The drummer was the biggest complainer of all, and by the end of the tour I pretty much let loose on him, and told him his laziness and bad decision was the reason the sound was unacceptable, so I didn't want to hear any more of his complaints.

After the tour, I built a wiring loom to patch the sound module to give me direct control over the individual channels so I could EQ and set levels. We left the cymbals panned in a stereo mix since we only had a 16 channel Mackie mixer. This greatly improved the sound.
 
#185
donotfret said:
This is a common excuse and is at best half true. The players who need to play loud to get a half-acceptable sound are almost certainly playing with a wrong technique. This usually means they don't let the sticks rebound properly, which means they can try as hard as they like, it will sound like sh*t. I do agree that there is a minimum level to make drums sound properly, but it is far lower than most people imagine.
Click to expand...

IMHO. People play loud because they enjoy it, not because it is required to get a good sound. Hint: If the drummer thinks it sounds great, but patrons are leaving the bar...it doesn't sound great where it matters.

For the record, I don't have any problems with a drummer who bashes if the band and audience is in to it...so as long as everyone is having a good time, hit the drums as hard as you want ;). But if people are complaining, show some restraint.

If you want to play drums at a lower volume, use the right technique, select the right sticks and heads, and tune the set for a lighter touch. Most importantly, practice playing at a low volume and don't bash the drums during sound check, or you will shift your hearing.

Unfortunately, most musicians love to crank up before sound check and don't consider that shifting their hearing prematurely will make it harder for them to hear later during the gig.

I almost always wear ear plugs whenever I play bass, mostly because of the drums, and yes I hate the sound with ear plugs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: edro
#186
Adopting electronic drums requires technique adjustment and a concerted learning process to get the best out of them. If a drummer is unwilling to learn something as fundamental as appropriate dynamics, I would have serious doubts that he/she would be willing to put in the effort to get on top of electronic drums.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sacreddog717
#188
JGbassman said:
I sit here writing this with my ears still ringing from this weekends club gigs. It's due to heavy handed drummers that apparently has only one level of dynamic-loud. And I got to thinking....


First of all, I have had the absolute privilege of playing with outstanding and mind-boggling talented musicians in my life, and I take away from none of those. Many are on signed labels, and some are people we have listened to on the radio of our past and present. I've played huge stages, and tiny dives unfit to sit in. Played pro with all the perks, and as a holiday inn lounge lizard with only a bored bartender and the buffet table as a witness to my agony on a Monday night. That being said, here we go.

I still play at a Reginal level, doing a lot of sub work and working with a few bands. A few bands I work with get the A stages in casinos and the like, but most are in the trenches at clubs. As live music isn't what it used to be, most clubs have smaller stages, lower expected volumes, and less tolerance for stupid.

In one of my main bands, (for three more months) the two primary singers for this 80's rock band are the female front and a male drummer. He is neither amazing on either the drums or vocals, but he gets the job done.

Friday we had a gig in a club where you could just tell it was going to be a lower volume room. The band owns a very capable PA system where I run sound from stage, or we hire foh based on the gig. Friday it was our set up. We use the x-18 system, and after its initially dialed in it doesn't take much to tweak from job to job. I get the eq set, ring out the monitors, then get the band mixed. Everyone runs a wedge except for the drummer, whom runs in ear monitoring. The problem is he is a hard hitter. Like one dynamic.. Loud. The snare sounds like a cannon. The sealed ears he wears compound the issue and he just pounds away. The room was live and I had no control over the drums. At all. The bartenders freak out, saying we are way too loud, so I scramble through the first set, eventually I take everything out of the mix except for a little vocals. The stage has very little stage volume but the drums are so loud we can't even here the vocals due to the tight stage. All it is is drums. I wear ear plugs on most of the shows, but the drummer is mad and hits even harder, where the earplugs aren't even working. I'm angry, and at the point I'm ready to walk. And that's not how I act ever. By the end of the night it's dead, the entire crowd is in the other half of the bar, as it's too much. The drummer and his loud kit single handely killed the gig. If you say anything to him, he pouts and says they shouldn't have live music then. He is a joy to work with.

Yes, it was a lower volume room, but it would have been easily managed if the drummer would have had an electronic kit. It simply would have been a non-issue.

In another project I work with a pro level drummer with a modern electronic kit. In fact the pads go in regular drum shells, and by looking at the kit you would never know they weren't real drums. The cymbals are low volume models as well. He and I run in ear monitoring, and he has an amp he sets up by his drums as well. The only way you can tell a difference is due to the fact an regular acoustic set could never sound as good as his drums do.

There is no mic bleed, no howling feedback on stage, and the levels are down to a respectful level. In short, you can mix the drums into the stage instead of them overpowering everything.

These days with the technology available, why don't more drummers go that route? You don't see full stack Marshalls or multi 810 cabs on stage for smaller gigs, we have evolved. Why do drummers use (and bands members accept) their outdated instruments?

Modern electronic drums are amazing, offer better sounds than acoustics on stage, and are controllable in a mix. With an amp on stage, there is no weak spot. It just works. The modern triggering system is just as sensitive as acoustics according to the drummer. So much of the issues we have during live shows center around the acoustic drums. Why not step into the new century?

Yes I know there are drummers that play acoustics that are very manageable on stages, and yes I know there are shields they can use, but using electronic drums takes all that away, and makes it very easy for the sound engineer to get a great sound.

I know this will be met with skepticism, change often does. I'm not asking for anything but drummers to catch up to the rest of the band as far as technology. My amp has a volume knob. So should the drummer. At the start of the year that band will cease, as the singer and I are working on a new project. Most of the reason stems from the heavy handed drummers that style of music lends itself to. I just won't put up with out of control drummers any more.

I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. Am I out of line, or and I just using common sense where it's not been applied?
Click to expand...
I don't think you're out of line, but I think you may have a misunderstanding; to me, asking a talented drummer to play an electronic kit is like asking Jaco to play a midibass, one that might have electronic strings, if that existed. The feel is all different.

That said, I agree too loud is too loud. You need a new drummer, or perhaps make this one willing to get lighter sticks and a smaller, quieter kit so he can beat the poopie out of stuff and not kill the business. And that whole "they shouldn't have a band" crap is amateur nonsense. You don't need an electronic kit, you need a better guy.

But let's not forget it's not always the drummer. I just left a *blues* band that had the loudest guitar players on earth. I remain amazed at how loud a 15 watt Blues Junior can get. The guitar players regularly drowned out the drums.

Go figure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JGbassman
#189
Being a drummer for over 30 years and a bassist also for 20 +
I can say from my experience that know matter how expensive any electric kit I've owned and I've owned many even the TD30 When it first came out
I hated hated hated the sound and more important the feel of them
NOTHING will ever compare to the feel and sound of a nice acoustic kit
 
  • Like
Reactions: rohi
#191
After reading all ten pages, I'm somewhat suprised how polarizing e drums are for the members here. To be honest, I haven't worked with many drummers that have used e drums as their primary instruments. The ones that have were very accomplished, had absolute control over an acoustic set, but chose the options of the e kits due to their versatility.

The band with the drummer I'm complaining about is not my band. I am a hired player. The drummer is a hack I would have never chose to hire, he was in the band when I filled in for some dates. The problem being the pay was good and consistent, so I stayed. At first it seemed he didn't have the issue, and was somewhat interested in bettering himself. In the last four months it's been a wash. He doesn't care, and it is what it is. He can't take any criticism, nor would he ever entertain the thought of using e drums, or other sound controlling device as it's all about him, not the good of the band.

I have three months left that I guaranteed I would do for the band leader, as she is a great talent, and a wonderful friend. If it wasn't for the respect I have for her, I would have walked a month ago. In my area, I can make a few phone calls and stay as busy as I want to.

I have a very high standard for drummers. Most I have worked with are true professionals, in all styles and disciplines. My brother is a professional jazz musician in the Chicago area, where he plays with some pretty accomplished musicians. I will go over and pick up some occasional gigs with him, mostly because it's fun and a pretty humbling experience when jazz isn't your home base. The drummers I work with there all have acoustic kits, but are very in control of their volume and dynamics. These are usually smaller and lower volume gigs, very few with mics on them. This style is not what I'm talking about. The e drums don't really have any advantage in that situation. Most of the time a sax or horn player will overshoot even the drummers in those gigs.

The project I am starting with the drummer that has the e drums is an amazing player. I toured with him, and have known him since he was 15. He has multiple tours under his belt, even worked with rock guitarist Zack Wyld At one point. The guy has been endorsed, has a degree in music as well. At this time he has three or four kits of every size and flavor, but prefers the e drums. Like I said, the heads (pads) actually retro fit into a regular drum kit. You cannot tell they are electronic drums. The snare, toms, kick, high hats, cymbals, all look like a regular kit. These are very high end gear from what I'm guessing. The cymbals are real, but are a reduced noise version, where he has some custom piezoelectric mics that pick up the sound. They sound absolutely like real cymbals, only at a lower volume. The sounds of the drums are absolutely real sounding as well. More than good enough for a live show. He has a good amp system and good speakers where he can turn it up as loud and thump as any ham fisted drummer, but he chooses not to. We are in the process of working up a pro level tribute band, and the ability to incorporate midi effects for percussion, blending handclaps in with a snare, key patches, the list goes on. I will get the name of the drums next practice. I do know a big reason is because he has tinnitus, and it's more manageable with the e drums. We will run in ear monitoring with good drivers, so there isn't anything lacking. The amp will be used to fill the stage between the foh speakers, as I will pop one ear monitor out every now and then, it helps to have the stage filled with the drums as well.

Even though this really won't be a club band, my original post is directed more to the typical cover band in small clubs playing loud style music. I guess I didn't realize the mid and lower lines of e drums were so bad. I've been lucky to avoid that. Using user controlled in ear monitoring has also been my norm, so I can put exactly what I want in my mix. Having a weak mix of drums would be frustrating.

I'm still a huge endorser of e drums for gig work for those that an acoustic kit is more of a hinderance than asset, unfortunately for those drummers, they won't want to invest the money into a good set of e drums, preferring to bash away on their outdated style and kit.

Most of the Jazz, gospel, and country Pro's I've worked with get it, and work on their volumes. Unfortunately many weekend warriors in classic rock bands don't. I think a lot has to do with the energy and show rock is known for.

But in a perfect world..... Even the bassist would be remembered.

;)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: KJMO, BAG, StayLow and 1 other person
#195
JKos said:
Then why hasn't she fired the ham-fisted drummer?

- John
Click to expand...

She and I are splitting off and doing another project at the start of the year. It's over then.The big reason he was there was he was her relief singer. It's hard to find a drummer that sings 80's hair band music at all, let alone well. Vince Neil, Sebastian Bach, Def Leppard, are somewhat difficult to cover, and he was able to sing that style. All members of the band sang lead and we had big harmonies, but he did most of the singing to give her a break.

If he didn't sing he would have been gone a long time earlier. This band was at its ten year mark with many different line ups over the years. Instead of finding another member, we decided to go in a different direction.
 
  • Like
Reactions: StayLow
#196
edro said:
Those are sometimes easier to deal with than the ones that sandbag during sound check and crank right before go time...

;)
Click to expand...

It's not uncommon for people to wail a bit before sound check under the guise of getting their sound, dial it back a bit during sound check, and then really crank it up during the gig.
 
  • Like
Reactions: edro
#197
JGbassman said:
After reading all ten pages, I'm somewhat suprised how polarizing e drums are for the members here. To be honest, I haven't worked with many drummers that have used e drums as their primary instruments. The ones that have were very accomplished, had absolute control over an acoustic set, but chose the options of the e kits due to their versatility.

The band with the drummer I'm complaining about is not my band. I am a hired player. The drummer is a hack I would have never chose to hire, he was in the band when I filled in for some dates. The problem being the pay was good and consistent, so I stayed. At first it seemed he didn't have the issue, and was somewhat interested in bettering himself. In the last four months it's been a wash. He doesn't care, and it is what it is. He can't take any criticism, nor would he ever entertain the thought of using e drums, or other sound controlling device as it's all about him, not the good of the band.

I have three months left that I guaranteed I would do for the band leader, as she is a great talent, and a wonderful friend. If it wasn't for the respect I have for her, I would have walked a month ago. In my area, I can make a few phone calls and stay as busy as I want to.

I have a very high standard for drummers. Most I have worked with are true professionals, in all styles and disciplines. My brother is a professional jazz musician in the Chicago area, where he plays with some pretty accomplished musicians. I will go over and pick up some occasional gigs with him, mostly because it's fun and a pretty humbling experience when jazz isn't your home base. The drummers I work with there all have acoustic kits, but are very in control of their volume and dynamics. These are usually smaller and lower volume gigs, very few with mics on them. This style is not what I'm talking about. The e drums don't really have any advantage in that situation. Most of the time a sax or horn player will overshoot even the drummers in those gigs.

The project I am starting with the drummer that has the e drums is an amazing player. I toured with him, and have known him since he was 15. He has multiple tours under his belt, even worked with rock guitarist Zack Wyld At one point. The guy has been endorsed, has a degree in music as well. At this time he has three or four kits of every size and flavor, but prefers the e drums. Like I said, the heads (pads) actually retro fit into a regular drum kit. You cannot tell they are electronic drums. The snare, toms, kick, high hats, cymbals, all look like a regular kit. These are very high end gear from what I'm guessing. The cymbals are real, but are a reduced noise version, where he has some custom piezoelectric mics that pick up the sound. They sound absolutely like real cymbals, only at a lower volume. The sounds of the drums are absolutely real sounding as well. More than good enough for a live show. He has a good amp system and good speakers where he can turn it up as loud and thump as any ham fisted drummer, but he chooses not to. We are in the process of working up a pro level tribute band, and the ability to incorporate midi effects for percussion, blending handclaps in with a snare, key patches, the list goes on. I will get the name of the drums next practice. I do know a big reason is because he has tinnitus, and it's more manageable with the e drums. We will run in ear monitoring with good drivers, so there isn't anything lacking. The amp will be used to fill the stage between the foh speakers, as I will pop one ear monitor out every now and then, it helps to have the stage filled with the drums as well.

Even though this really won't be a club band, my original post is directed more to the typical cover band in small clubs playing loud style music. I guess I didn't realize the mid and lower lines of e drums were so bad. I've been lucky to avoid that. Using user controlled in ear monitoring has also been my norm, so I can put exactly what I want in my mix. Having a weak mix of drums would be frustrating.

I'm still a huge endorser of e drums for gig work for those that an acoustic kit is more of a hinderance than asset, unfortunately for those drummers, they won't want to invest the money into a good set of e drums, preferring to bash away on their outdated style and kit.

Most of the Jazz, gospel, and country Pro's I've worked with get it, and work on their volumes. Unfortunately many weekend warriors in classic rock bands don't. I think a lot has to do with the energy and show rock is known for.

But in a perfect world..... Even the bassist would be remembered.

;)
Click to expand...

Seems you have all the pieces of the puzzle...ultimately it's a rare bird that that enjoys using electronic drums and, in my experience, most drummers are strongly opposed to them. For those who do use electronic drums, it possible to do some pretty amazing things despite what all the nay-sayers think. But you have to keep in mind that effectively using electronic drums requires a certain amount of knowledge and curiosity about the technology. Also electronic drums are not capable of authentically replacing real drums in all circumstances. This means as a group leader or project manager, you have to be knowledgeable enough to know when electronic drums are potentially beneficial and when they are not.

Rather than forcing someone to use electronic drums, perhaps a better strategy is to hire a player who already understands and embraces the technology. It is a lot easier to form a trusting and synergistic relationship if similar philosophies and goals are shared. Sounds like you are on your way :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JGbassman and CEBill

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back