Why don't club drummers embrace electronic kits more often?

[Chickenwheels]

Loudest drummer I've ever worked with used an electronic kit and PA speakers.

 

[saabfender]

Did i mention it's impossible to look badass playing an e-kit? "That's cute. He brought his toy drums!"

 

[donotfret]

you gotta hit the drums with a certain intensity in order to get a certain sound and that means hitting the kit hard sometimes

This is a common excuse and is at best half true. The players who need to play loud to get a half-acceptable sound are almost certainly playing with a wrong technique. This usually means they don't let the sticks rebound properly, which means they can try as hard as they like, it will sound like sh*t. I do agree that there is a minimum level to make drums sound properly, but it is far lower than most people imagine.

 

[Chickenwheels]

The main drummer I work with atm has the greatest skill any musician can have: the ability to play any feel at any volume, and the ability to "hear" the room and adjust. Heck, we both wore plugs last night because the singers are yet to learn this...and they're on IEMs. Technology isn't the answer IMHO. Maybe. I'm still learning.

 

[lbbc]

I played with a drummer who had an electronic kit. He could dial in a very decent sound, split the signal so 1 went to his monitor and 1 to the PA. It took him minutes to set up and tear down. Never a problem with volume...as a matter of fact, we all played direct with no amps (just good monitors) on stage. He had a killer acoustic set at home but said it wasn't worth the time to tear down and set it up at gigs. If my current band needed a drummer, he'd be the one I'd call.

 

[interp]

In the first situation the OP describes there is one and only one solution—do not work with that drummer again. Ever.
And it is not a "fire the drummer" situation. The same solution applies to anyone playing any instrument.

 

[andykeating]

Simple... because they're rubbish. Look terrible and even the best ones still sound artificial. I don't think I'd enjoy playing some electronic iteration of a bass guitar either.

Sounds to me as though the drummers in question just aren't great and don't play to the gig/room.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Just tell your guy it's a simple 12 step program, but first, he has to want to change.

 

[somegeezer]

Get into playing light Jazz instead.

 

[hrodbert696]

Six Cowards' new drummer plays a nice rack-mounted e-kit. I don't know the model but it's designed to look like acoustic drums to the casual observer. He sounds great and the whole thing looks good, and yes, you get volume control. Our previous drummer was a great player in many ways but just too heavy-handed (he had been away from playing for a while and would talk about how he was building up to being able to play with heavier sticks again... dear lord, NO!). The drummer before THAT (we've had a revolving door...) played an acoustic kit but had perfect control.

I would also add, it's awfully nice for a weekend warrior like me, where we have to run sound from the stage but don't have an experienced sound guy, to be able to just take a DI off his kit and not worry about elaborate sound checks dialing in each individual drum.

 

[el murdoque]

I'm playing with a drummer who was forced to switch to e-drums due to health reasons. He has a custom built Drumtec set that is top of the line and runs it into the latest and best Roland machine.
As I gather it, this is top of the line gear and there is not much possible in terms of improvement.

The benefits for the band are huge. Setup takes less time, the whole thing is super easy to transport, and
above all, there is no acoustic instrument to set the minimal volume - the band can go as silent as desired.
The problem is, that when you have someone who is competent on snaredrum, ride and hihats, even the best of systems provide only a fraction of what you can pull off on an acoustic set.
The new Roland TD-40 supports three zones on the ride cymbal - that's not a lot, compared to a real one.

It's a bit like you're used to your tube head and carefully selected cabinet(s), but get forced to play your bass through an emulation into IEM instead of playing through your head and cab.




The funny thing is that the problem (missing dynamics of a drummer) and the suspected solution (missing dynamics of e-drums) are often the same.

When you pound away at the set like you want to punish it for a severe crime, there is not much happening in terms of dynamics and in band context, a good e-drum can replace it easily.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

This isn't just a problem for lousy drummers, i once saw Alan Holdsworth playing with Jimmy Johnson and Chad Wackerman, the aptly named drummer. All ferociously talented players, but his acoustic kit overwhelmed the bar hall, effectively ruined the gig. I always thought another huge benefit to electronic drum sets would be the possibility of nearly silent practice sessions, not everybody has access to a soundproof room, or one remote enough for others not to care. Every drummer I ever discussed it with turned up his nose, and they were right to in the Simmons days. Times have changed, and the technology has improved. Bass and guitar players have been effectively listening to a highly processed "imitation" of their instruments acoustic tone for decades, drummers seem to be fine with that, but resist change themselves,

 

[lfmn16]

I play with a couple of drummers who have electronic kits for when we play small clubs. They say that the electronic kits don't respond the same way as acoustic drums. That's why they prefer not to use them.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Good ones aren't cheap, cheap ones aren't good. None of them play like real drums.

A good drummer isn't playing full volume, just as a good singer isn't blowing out their vocals chords all night, or a good guitarist playing solos all night.

 

[Ulf_Hansson]

Well, a bad drummer will make the e-kit sound like loud noise anyway.

There is no silver bullet and no replacement for musicality, sorry.

 

[CapnSev]

I agree with everyone else that it's the drummer himself, not so much the kit. If the drummer is loud, there are zero things you can do about it. He/she sets the volume baseline for the rest of the band. You have to match the drummer. There are ways to control dynamics and still get a great punch from the kit. I've heard it done many times.

That being said, the greatest drummer I ever played with used an electronic kit for everything except big gigs. Yes, they look kind of silly. Once he played them, it wasn't silly anymore. It was amazing. Plus, his setup time was as fast as mine. I don't remember what the drum kit was, but I know it was expensive.

 

[drumwagon]

I'm a long time drummer who fell in love with bass about 3 years ago. As a drummer I've played quite a few gigs with electronic drums. Volume control (in both directions) and diversity of sound are a definitely a plus. I played drums with headphones for hearing protection and with a mix of the vocals for singing, so it was nice to be able to add some drums to the mix.

While the sounds were not optimal, they sounded fine in a live cover band mix. I only mic'd my snare and kick, so an electronic kit mix was much complete with toms, cymbals and percussion.

But at the end of the day, I really don't like the feel of electronic drums. A big part of playing drums is visceral/tactile, even at a lower volumes, and electronic drum were missing that (band members felt the same) There's no substitute for the punch of a kick drum, or how your stick reacts to a head/wood drum, or brass cymbal.

While I'm definitely a newbie on bass, I tried to think of a bass analogy.... so here it goes.

You ever go down the row of instruments at a store, and you know after 30 seconds an instrument is not what you want, then ones just feels right, the weight, balance, look, musicality of the instrument stand out, that's the instrument you want. As for live sound you could probably take most basses and get a decent live sound for 99% of the audience, but the one that feels right makes the whole experience better. While not all acoustic drums were that instrument, Electronic drums were never that instrument.

 

[blue4]

If I was starting a pro band I would not have e drums. If I were starting a weekend cover band I absolutely would use them exclusively. Speaking as a frequent audience member your volume control is 100 time more important to me then your excellent cymbal technique when at a small venue. Sorry but it is.

The comparison between e drums and keyboard bass is a bad one IMO. One is an electric version of an instrument and The other is playing bass lines on a totally different instrument. Now if you were playing drums on a keyboard like when a guy we sometimes play with does steel drums on the keys when we play Jimmy Buffett. That would be an accurate comparison. The electric bass guitar actually IS an electronic solution to volume issues (and of course to allow guitar players to play) with the double bass, only in that case the volume was frequently too low. Many people years ago said that a bass guitar could absolutely never ever have the nuance and tone of a double bass, yet here we are today.

Of course we all want to play with pro level drummers who can control their volume and maintain great tone. But since those players aren't exactly common, it's my opinion that for a church band or a small venue band a very good e drum set is a worthwhile investment. Buy that, a good PA, and a decent small mixing board and you can play anywhere, anytime. You can always drag out the drum set and everybody's individual amps for all day outdoor shows if you absolutely have to pretend to be Led Zeppeln for a day.

 

[oldcatfish]

I sit here writing this with my ears still ringing from this weekends club gigs. It's due to heavy handed drummers that apparently has only one level of dynamic-loud. And I got to thinking....


First of all, I have had the absolute privilege of playing with outstanding and mind-boggling talented musicians in my life, and I take away from none of those. Many are on signed labels, and some are people we have listened to on the radio of our past and present. I've played huge stages, and tiny dives unfit to sit in. Played pro with all the perks, and as a holiday inn lounge lizard with only a bored bartender and the buffet table as a witness to my agony on a Monday night. That being said, here we go.

I still play at a Reginal level, doing a lot of sub work and working with a few bands. A few bands I work with get the A stages in casinos and the like, but most are in the trenches at clubs. As live music isn't what it used to be, most clubs have smaller stages, lower expected volumes, and less tolerance for stupid.

In one of my main bands, (for three more months) the two primary singers for this 80's rock band are the female front and a male drummer. He is neither amazing on either the drums or vocals, but he gets the job done.

Friday we had a gig in a club where you could just tell it was going to be a lower volume room. The band owns a very capable PA system where I run sound from stage, or we hire foh based on the gig. Friday it was our set up. We use the x-18 system, and after its initially dialed in it doesn't take much to tweak from job to job. I get the eq set, ring out the monitors, then get the band mixed. Everyone runs a wedge except for the drummer, whom runs in ear monitoring. The problem is he is a hard hitter. Like one dynamic.. Loud. The snare sounds like a cannon. The sealed ears he wears compound the issue and he just pounds away. The room was live and I had no control over the drums. At all. The bartenders freak out, saying we are way too loud, so I scramble through the first set, eventually I take everything out of the mix except for a little vocals. The stage has very little stage volume but the drums are so loud we can't even here the vocals due to the tight stage. All it is is drums. I wear ear plugs on most of the shows, but the drummer is mad and hits even harder, where the earplugs aren't even working. I'm angry, and at the point I'm ready to walk. And that's not how I act ever. By the end of the night it's dead, the entire crowd is in the other half of the bar, as it's too much. The drummer and his loud kit single handely killed the gig. If you say anything to him, he pouts and says they shouldn't have live music then. He is a joy to work with.

Yes, it was a lower volume room, but it would have been easily managed if the drummer would have had an electronic kit. It simply would have been a non-issue.

In another project I work with a pro level drummer with a modern electronic kit. In fact the pads go in regular drum shells, and by looking at the kit you would never know they weren't real drums. The cymbals are low volume models as well. He and I run in ear monitoring, and he has an amp he sets up by his drums as well. The only way you can tell a difference is due to the fact an regular acoustic set could never sound as good as his drums do.

There is no mic bleed, no howling feedback on stage, and the levels are down to a respectful level. In short, you can mix the drums into the stage instead of them overpowering everything.

These days with the technology available, why don't more drummers go that route? You don't see full stack Marshalls or multi 810 cabs on stage for smaller gigs, we have evolved. Why do drummers use (and bands members accept) their outdated instruments?

Modern electronic drums are amazing, offer better sounds than acoustics on stage, and are controllable in a mix. With an amp on stage, there is no weak spot. It just works. The modern triggering system is just as sensitive as acoustics according to the drummer. So much of the issues we have during live shows center around the acoustic drums. Why not step into the new century?

Yes I know there are drummers that play acoustics that are very manageable on stages, and yes I know there are shields they can use, but using electronic drums takes all that away, and makes it very easy for the sound engineer to get a great sound.

I know this will be met with skepticism, change often does. I'm not asking for anything but drummers to catch up to the rest of the band as far as technology. My amp has a volume knob. So should the drummer. At the start of the year that band will cease, as the singer and I are working on a new project. Most of the reason stems from the heavy handed drummers that style of music lends itself to. I just won't put up with out of control drummers any more.

I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. Am I out of line, or and I just using common sense where it's not been applied?

As a longtime gigging musician who plays almost exclusive at low volume gigs, church gigs, etc, I agree with the OP.

Yes electronic drums feel and respond differently than acoustic drums. I know, I'm a drummer. But the high end ones are very close to a real acoustic kit.

Really though, you have to think of electronic drums as a different instrument than acoustic drums.....just like electric guitar is different than an acoustic guitar. The play skills are the same, but the feel is different. Electric guitars have much lighter strings requiring a lighter attack, and they require better muting of unwanted notes.

The problem with electronic kits is the cost....several thousand for a good one.

 

[40Hz]

Easier to get a drummer that can play his instrument properly, and for talent buyers to say no to clueless bands.

Far too many bands are far too loud for the rooms they play, not just drummers.

Electronic kits generally look ridiculous and sound terrible when amplified. Top-of-the-line ones like a TD-50 or MarkDrums look decent and can sound great, but it'd cost less to buy smaller acoustic kits and take lessons so these bashers can actually learn to play their instrument properly.

This. A thousand times this.