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Why don't club drummers embrace electronic kits more often?

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I hear what you're saying.. I'm wondering - as a non-drummer - if these things actually work.. If they DO, our drummer is getting some for his upcoming birthday ;)

I've played with a fantastic drummer who can play with the same intensity at different volumes, then I've played with a drummer who's in itself a good drummer, apart from the volume-thing. It's the only "acoustic" thing in our band, so hard to regulate, esp for late-night outdoor gigs a bit of a challenge. If he has these sticks, would he still be able to beat the snot out of his skins, just producing lower volume??

Regards
Mark
They sound and feel completely different from regular sticks and are no substitute.
 
Those of you claiming that electronic drums don't sound authentic might not have heard one since the Simmons kits in the 80s (which were really cool BTW).

If you listen to the radio, and perhaps sadly, 85% or more of the drum sounds you hear are synthetic, including the cymbals. They sound much more convincing now.

I suspect cost and circumstance are the two key issues:

Cost, obviously, as good electronic kits are still expensive and drummers might not think they will use them often enough to rationalize.

Circumstance, as you almost have to be running a full IEM system for the whole band for it to really work. Which some groups are and some aren't. I don't think it's nearly as effective to try to run an electronic kit through an amp or monitors as stage volume.

This is the problem. The top of the line v-drum kits from Roland/Yamaha/etc. both sound legit and generally have the right feel, but they're incredibly expensive. I did some recording work with a TD-30 a few years ago which would have retailed for about $6000, and the best Roland electric kit was I think about $10000.

Anyway, you just need a good drummer. This past weekend I did a rock recording session live off the floor, drums, vox, bass, guitar, and keys, all in the same room and it sounded fine.
 
I sit here writing this with my ears still ringing from this weekends club gigs. It's due to heavy handed drummers that apparently has only one level of dynamic-loud. And I got to thinking....


First of all, I have had the absolute privilege of playing with outstanding and mind-boggling talented musicians in my life, and I take away from none of those. Many are on signed labels, and some are people we have listened to on the radio of our past and present. I've played huge stages, and tiny dives unfit to sit in. Played pro with all the perks, and as a holiday inn lounge lizard with only a bored bartender and the buffet table as a witness to my agony on a Monday night. That being said, here we go.

I still play at a Reginal level, doing a lot of sub work and working with a few bands. A few bands I work with get the A stages in casinos and the like, but most are in the trenches at clubs. As live music isn't what it used to be, most clubs have smaller stages, lower expected volumes, and less tolerance for stupid.

In one of my main bands, (for three more months) the two primary singers for this 80's rock band are the female front and a male drummer. He is neither amazing on either the drums or vocals, but he gets the job done.

Friday we had a gig in a club where you could just tell it was going to be a lower volume room. The band owns a very capable PA system where I run sound from stage, or we hire foh based on the gig. Friday it was our set up. We use the x-18 system, and after its initially dialed in it doesn't take much to tweak from job to job. I get the eq set, ring out the monitors, then get the band mixed. Everyone runs a wedge except for the drummer, whom runs in ear monitoring. The problem is he is a hard hitter. Like one dynamic.. Loud. The snare sounds like a cannon. The sealed ears he wears compound the issue and he just pounds away. The room was live and I had no control over the drums. At all. The bartenders freak out, saying we are way too loud, so I scramble through the first set, eventually I take everything out of the mix except for a little vocals. The stage has very little stage volume but the drums are so loud we can't even here the vocals due to the tight stage. All it is is drums. I wear ear plugs on most of the shows, but the drummer is mad and hits even harder, where the earplugs aren't even working. I'm angry, and at the point I'm ready to walk. And that's not how I act ever. By the end of the night it's dead, the entire crowd is in the other half of the bar, as it's too much. The drummer and his loud kit single handely killed the gig. If you say anything to him, he pouts and says they shouldn't have live music then. He is a joy to work with.

Yes, it was a lower volume room, but it would have been easily managed if the drummer would have had an electronic kit. It simply would have been a non-issue.

In another project I work with a pro level drummer with a modern electronic kit. In fact the pads go in regular drum shells, and by looking at the kit you would never know they weren't real drums. The cymbals are low volume models as well. He and I run in ear monitoring, and he has an amp he sets up by his drums as well. The only way you can tell a difference is due to the fact an regular acoustic set could never sound as good as his drums do.

There is no mic bleed, no howling feedback on stage, and the levels are down to a respectful level. In short, you can mix the drums into the stage instead of them overpowering everything.

These days with the technology available, why don't more drummers go that route? You don't see full stack Marshalls or multi 810 cabs on stage for smaller gigs, we have evolved. Why do drummers use (and bands members accept) their outdated instruments?

Modern electronic drums are amazing, offer better sounds than acoustics on stage, and are controllable in a mix. With an amp on stage, there is no weak spot. It just works. The modern triggering system is just as sensitive as acoustics according to the drummer. So much of the issues we have during live shows center around the acoustic drums. Why not step into the new century?

Yes I know there are drummers that play acoustics that are very manageable on stages, and yes I know there are shields they can use, but using electronic drums takes all that away, and makes it very easy for the sound engineer to get a great sound.

I know this will be met with skepticism, change often does. I'm not asking for anything but drummers to catch up to the rest of the band as far as technology. My amp has a volume knob. So should the drummer. At the start of the year that band will cease, as the singer and I are working on a new project. Most of the reason stems from the heavy handed drummers that style of music lends itself to. I just won't put up with out of control drummers any more.

I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. Am I out of line, or and I just using common sense where it's not been applied?

First, it's not the kit, it's the player. If a drummer needs a volume knob, he/she's not much of a musician. I get that some songs need certain stick velocity to work right, but there are lighter sticks and "rods" that will help keep volume in check. But in the end, it's on the drummer to apply dynamics just like everybody else.

Second, electronic drums are getting much better, but still not really the same. My drummer has a kit set up in my house and while they sound OK, it's just not the same. In some cases they are "too perfect" (BL didn't like the way that the snare recorded because it was too consistent). In other cases (cymbals), they were too inconsistent. Drummer got all kinds of unexpected sounds from those. Granted, he didn't spend a lot of time dialing the kit in after setting it up and it hasn't been used in years, but still, you just shouldn't have to worry about a "gong" showing up when you are expecting a "crash".

When trying to dial in a recording balance between live snare, cymbals and electronic kick/toms, I noticed that the skins on the toms were very spongy and don't know how in the world he is able to play with a snare skin and the spongy toms - he admits that it is very difficult.
 
A drummer, like any other musician, has control over their dynamics - they can stop playing, and be silent, or hit like a mule, and be really loud. Any good musician will, most of the time, play less than full out - leaving dynamic headroom for when it should be loud.

I've seen Buddy Guy play a number of times, and he will play so quietly that you can hear his picking (the sound from his strings on his Strat) acoustically. Then he turns it up and roars - the contrast is what makes the impact. And, the band (he has a lot if different guys that play with him) will follow him instinctively - from a roar to VERY quiet. If your drummer auditioned for Buddy Guy, halfway through the tune (if he even made it that far) Buddy would stop, and say "next".

Your drummer is simply not a good musician. He may be trainable, but if not, absolutely fire the drummer.
 
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i've heard that ... they don't feel or respond right ..!!

well , i think they need to try different types of elec drum pads to find ones that Feel best ... then learn to play those properly ... = Practice on them , and learn to program them so they sound and feel good ..!!

my old setup for my drummer friends and myself ...

studioBrimfield2.jpg


or maybe for tight spaces ... some type of octapad thing with extra pedal/pad inputs ..!? do you really think most of the audience would care or notice ..??

STC_2366.JPG
 
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I'm a multi-instrumentalist. One of those instruments is drums. I have a nice, large Tama acoustic kit, and I also have a large Alesis DM-10 Studio electronic kit. They are not at all the same instrument. They mostly make the same sounds, but they play completely different. Even though the electronic kit has "real" drum heads, the feel is just not the same. Neither is the audible interaction with the instrument. A reasonable comparison would be the difference in playing a real bass guitar with real strings versus playing a guitar midi controller similar to those contraptions used for those guitar hero-type games. It just wouldn't be the same, would it.

The problem isn't the acoustic drums, but rather some of the neanderthals beating on them. I've played with a few drummers like that over the years. They always use the same poor excuses like "sounds better" etcetera ad nauseum. Don't buy that malarkey. All of the best drummers I've played with had a stunning command of dynamics, in addition to technical prowess. Even at low volume, their kits still sounded great.

Drummers who overcompensate with power and volume are the very reason I retired from BarStardom four years ago. My hearing is worth much more to me than that.

I've never played my electronic kit live. I really do prefer acoustic drums. However, not having enough room in my small home studio for the Tama kit, and liking the consistent sound from the e-kit, it's the e-kit that I write and record with. It's still not the same, but it does get the job done.
 
Asking a drummer to use an electronic kit is like asking a bass player to go DI into the board without an amp, and playing a generic P style 4 string bass (assuming you don't play a P bass) with different strings than you are used to.

Pretty much what I was thinking. Let's suggest changing everything about the way your kit looks, feels, and performs, because you're too loud.

It's the random variation of hits/placement/velocity/tempo and feel that give drums their organic composition. Digital drums don't have that capacity yet. Some are good, for example...

I know drummers, and own albums that used both electronic kits and triggered acoustic drums with programs like Superior Drummer 3. It does sound great, but not live and still recognizable as artificial. There's way too many variables in a good drum track, to be easily automated or triggered with enough randomization to be convincing, when compared to an organic acoustic drum track. Digital drums sound more like processed and recorded drums on an album, rather than live. Much like FRFR sounds recorded, vs the sound straight from an amp/cab.

Velocity and volume for drums is no different (in theory) than bass or guitar playing dynamics.

Stop trying to change the tool, it's operator error.

When someone tells me they are good at their instrument, i'm not looking for any formal training, superior scale knowledge, blazing leads, or intricate drum fills. Good, in my definition is someone who has timing/dynamics/feel and enthusiasm. Can't play that drum fill spot on? That's okay, keep working it, but don't put a hole through the toms on a 70bpm slow shuffle track when you should be using brushes anyway.
 
It's another one of those stories where I see zero mention of actually telling the drummer he was too loud. You said "if anyone says anything he pouts..." , but not that you prompted him on that gig where patrons were being driven out due to his playing. Did anyone point that out? Did anyone tell him the acoustics were such that the drums are overwhelming? I know you shouldn't have to even tell a musician this, but we already know its amateur hour with this drummer.

I have all the sympathy in the world for the situation, but not if you're not even asking, in the moment the problem is happening.

Don't be afraid to be a d!ck.
 
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I sit here writing this with my ears still ringing from this weekends club gigs. It's due to heavy handed drummers that apparently has only one level of dynamic-loud. And I got to thinking....


First of all, I have had the absolute privilege of playing with outstanding and mind-boggling talented musicians in my life, and I take away from none of those. Many are on signed labels, and some are people we have listened to on the radio of our past and present. I've played huge stages, and tiny dives unfit to sit in. Played pro with all the perks, and as a holiday inn lounge lizard with only a bored bartender and the buffet table as a witness to my agony on a Monday night. That being said, here we go.

I still play at a Reginal level, doing a lot of sub work and working with a few bands. A few bands I work with get the A stages in casinos and the like, but most are in the trenches at clubs. As live music isn't what it used to be, most clubs have smaller stages, lower expected volumes, and less tolerance for stupid.

In one of my main bands, (for three more months) the two primary singers for this 80's rock band are the female front and a male drummer. He is neither amazing on either the drums or vocals, but he gets the job done.

Friday we had a gig in a club where you could just tell it was going to be a lower volume room. The band owns a very capable PA system where I run sound from stage, or we hire foh based on the gig. Friday it was our set up. We use the x-18 system, and after its initially dialed in it doesn't take much to tweak from job to job. I get the eq set, ring out the monitors, then get the band mixed. Everyone runs a wedge except for the drummer, whom runs in ear monitoring. The problem is he is a hard hitter. Like one dynamic.. Loud. The snare sounds like a cannon. The sealed ears he wears compound the issue and he just pounds away. The room was live and I had no control over the drums. At all. The bartenders freak out, saying we are way too loud, so I scramble through the first set, eventually I take everything out of the mix except for a little vocals. The stage has very little stage volume but the drums are so loud we can't even here the vocals due to the tight stage. All it is is drums. I wear ear plugs on most of the shows, but the drummer is mad and hits even harder, where the earplugs aren't even working. I'm angry, and at the point I'm ready to walk. And that's not how I act ever. By the end of the night it's dead, the entire crowd is in the other half of the bar, as it's too much. The drummer and his loud kit single handely killed the gig. If you say anything to him, he pouts and says they shouldn't have live music then. He is a joy to work with.

Yes, it was a lower volume room, but it would have been easily managed if the drummer would have had an electronic kit. It simply would have been a non-issue.

In another project I work with a pro level drummer with a modern electronic kit. In fact the pads go in regular drum shells, and by looking at the kit you would never know they weren't real drums. The cymbals are low volume models as well. He and I run in ear monitoring, and he has an amp he sets up by his drums as well. The only way you can tell a difference is due to the fact an regular acoustic set could never sound as good as his drums do.

There is no mic bleed, no howling feedback on stage, and the levels are down to a respectful level. In short, you can mix the drums into the stage instead of them overpowering everything.

These days with the technology available, why don't more drummers go that route? You don't see full stack Marshalls or multi 810 cabs on stage for smaller gigs, we have evolved. Why do drummers use (and bands members accept) their outdated instruments?

Modern electronic drums are amazing, offer better sounds than acoustics on stage, and are controllable in a mix. With an amp on stage, there is no weak spot. It just works. The modern triggering system is just as sensitive as acoustics according to the drummer. So much of the issues we have during live shows center around the acoustic drums. Why not step into the new century?

Yes I know there are drummers that play acoustics that are very manageable on stages, and yes I know there are shields they can use, but using electronic drums takes all that away, and makes it very easy for the sound engineer to get a great sound.

I know this will be met with skepticism, change often does. I'm not asking for anything but drummers to catch up to the rest of the band as far as technology. My amp has a volume knob. So should the drummer. At the start of the year that band will cease, as the singer and I are working on a new project. Most of the reason stems from the heavy handed drummers that style of music lends itself to. I just won't put up with out of control drummers any more.

I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. Am I out of line, or and I just using common sense where it's not been applied?


Long winded, feel free to ignore...

A half assed guitar player, moving up to a limited run $10K Lester, is going to sound like a half assed guitar player...

Same with a half ass piano player. Just because you buy a Faz doesn't mean you're going to sound like Cain playing a Faz...

Bass, drums, perc, brass, winds, mics, cabs, etc... All the same...


A great drummer will sound like a great drummer on pretty much any kit....acoustic, electronic.... Except those old Simmons... Rat bastids need alien babducting for that tish...

A drummer that is adept at their craft can play dynamically expressive on any good kit. Electronics can be very expressive when tweaked and PLAYED expressively...

I've heard the Yamas, Rolands, Alesis....and have been impressed with them at all price marks...

Now, to that specific drummer, electronics ain't gonna help much with that jackass. If he has no contrast on acoustics, digitals ain't gonna solve anything as far as his playing. Sure, he will be more controllable on-stage and if he plays through ears, the floors won't be killing everybody (like his acoustic kit was) as you could have him in the floors just a touch....

The above being said, from your description of him tells me he would have A JBL powered PRX on top of an XLF there in a new york second for his on-stage monitor sys and THAT would be even worse....way worse....for every damn body within that zip code...

I don't think much of anything will rectify his condition...

I have a simple rule, jeopardize a gig with dumassery, there will be an intense conversation immediately after... One of us might be leaving...

And never, ever, not even a little bit, piss off the bartender... That is about the absolute dumbest thing a musician can do. They usually tell the owner/mgr what to do, and will talk ugly about you for freaking forever.... Make damn sure they can hear bar orders easily... If they cannot, you are taking money out of her/his pocket... Tends to piss them off... Think it out....

I'd say good luck but I'd be very surprised if that diptish will entertain any change... Already a legend in his own mind....
 
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A great drummer will sound like a great drummer on pretty much any kit....acoustic, electronic.... Except those old Simmons... Rat bastids need alien babducting for that tish...

A drummer that is adept at their craft can play dynamically expressive on any good kit. Electronics can be very expressive when tweaked and PLAYED expressively...

i'd like to agree, but unless the acoustic drummer spends not just the money but the time to research and try edrums till he/she finds heads that feel and respond like the heads on his/her acoustic kit, there will be an adjustment and a learning curve. rebound is very different on most electronic heads, which pretty much changes how you do things for your timing and ruin your fills.
 
I gave up on a band with a loud drummer. It wasn't just the volume, it was that every song start to finish was a freking drum solo. I could not sing in the band because the cacophony screwed up my sense of pitch. I recall playing solos where my patterns were conflicting with the drummers. Support, don't play over.
 
i'd like to agree, but unless the acoustic drummer spends not just the money but the time to research and try edrums till he/she finds heads that feel and respond like the heads on his/her acoustic kit, there will be an adjustment and a learning curve. rebound is very different on most electronic heads, which pretty much changes how you do things for your timing and ruin your fills.

There will be an adjustment curve changing anything...
There is a curve going from oils to dots to roughs to fake hides to kevs.
Rebound is different on every one of those heads...
My fav stick way back was the old Remo Cobham, now it is the VF Richs.
My favorite pick is Fender shell 346 Med, same size/mm Claytons is a learning curve.
Always a learning curve.

String core type change is a learning curve.
IV to V bass is a learning curve.
Yamaha weighted to Roland weighted to Kurz weighted is a learning curve.
Leo to Lester scale is a learning curve.
Jag to a Peavey Cirrus scale is a learning curve.
Fretless is a curve from hell....

Always a curve. How you deal with it is the question.... Most of it is in your mind...
Did a lot of practicing on plywood decades back...sometimes pillows...
 
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Most electronic kits both feel and sound like absolute crap, and a ham fisted player is going to sound even worse on one than on a standard kit: they'll just be quieter ;)

I've never heard an electronic kit that sounded bad.

Our drummer uses an electronic kit. Never an issue with volume or sound. And much easier/faster to setup and teardown

Not to mention more space on stage
 
I'm sure a lot upright bass players in the 50's were properly horrified when the first P-Bass came out, look how that turned out. I saw a ton of the Simmons sets in the 80's, that sound seems really cheesy and dated now, but the new sets are so good I doubt I'd know if I was hearing one recorded, though I guess a drummer would know.
 
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I used to thoroughly love the concept of Electronic Drums. I mean seriously a volume control on the drums, pure ingenious.
However I would never join a band with a totally immature out of control drummer. I have never heard a an electronic set sound like a 1965 Champagne set, Gretsch Renowns for the 60's, or a set of Ludwig Super Classics.