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Why don't club drummers embrace electronic kits more often?

We had a similar problem to the OP with our old drummer. He was so loud that we didn't need to mic his kit. This was actually a mistake, as the in-ears muffled the sound and made him hit louder. We ended up throwing mics on his whole kit, but not running them through the mains (maybe a little kick for body) and just blasting them in his monitor mix. The result was him hitting at a more manageable level.
 
I think the biggest thing is cost. A good sounding kit can be had with cymbals and all for $600-1000. A good sounding and consistantly reliable electric drumset starts at $1000. Plus, if we're gonna call them cavemen then maybe the tech is abive their heads. You could say the things about tube vs solid state people. One is cheaper, but they aren't always willing to compromise sound for convenience.

Many explinations, but there's time for people to change.
 
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I had a TrapKat back in 90s and even played a couple of gigs with it. It was not very close in feel or response to either my acoustic kit or the better electronic kits available now.

Most of the time, I'd still rather bring a small four piece kit and a few cymbals to a gig than an electronic kit. But that's because I'd generally rather play a thing than a thing that sounds like a thing.

Otto
 
Asking a drummer to use an electronic kit is like asking a bass player to go DI into the board without an amp, and playing a generic P style 4 string bass (assuming you don't play a P bass) with different strings than you are used to.

I think its more being asked to play your P bass instead of your DB because nobody can hear you. I play DI and switched from tapes to rounds in order for us to sound better. Isn't that what we're supposed to do, what's best for the band? Especially after all the "who's the most professional" contests we have in the band management section.....
 
[...]Many people years ago said that a bass guitar could absolutely never ever have the nuance and tone of a double bass, yet here we are today.
[..]

Yes, here we are today with the certainty they were all completely correct.

This isn't directed at you, just riffing off what you wrote...

If any electric bassist thinks that slab is in any way an acceptable substitute for upright, please go over to the DB side of this site and post a video of your nuanced electric bass bowing technique and be sure to detail your trad jazz and orchestral electric bass gig credits.
 
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I sit here writing this with my ears still ringing from this weekends club gigs. It's due to heavy handed drummers that apparently has only one level of dynamic-loud. And I got to thinking....


First of all, I have had the absolute privilege of playing with outstanding and mind-boggling talented musicians in my life, and I take away from none of those. Many are on signed labels, and some are people we have listened to on the radio of our past and present. I've played huge stages, and tiny dives unfit to sit in. Played pro with all the perks, and as a holiday inn lounge lizard with only a bored bartender and the buffet table as a witness to my agony on a Monday night. That being said, here we go.

I still play at a Reginal level, doing a lot of sub work and working with a few bands. A few bands I work with get the A stages in casinos and the like, but most are in the trenches at clubs. As live music isn't what it used to be, most clubs have smaller stages, lower expected volumes, and less tolerance for stupid.

In one of my main bands, (for three more months) the two primary singers for this 80's rock band are the female front and a male drummer. He is neither amazing on either the drums or vocals, but he gets the job done.

Friday we had a gig in a club where you could just tell it was going to be a lower volume room. The band owns a very capable PA system where I run sound from stage, or we hire foh based on the gig. Friday it was our set up. We use the x-18 system, and after its initially dialed in it doesn't take much to tweak from job to job. I get the eq set, ring out the monitors, then get the band mixed. Everyone runs a wedge except for the drummer, whom runs in ear monitoring. The problem is he is a hard hitter. Like one dynamic.. Loud. The snare sounds like a cannon. The sealed ears he wears compound the issue and he just pounds away. The room was live and I had no control over the drums. At all. The bartenders freak out, saying we are way too loud, so I scramble through the first set, eventually I take everything out of the mix except for a little vocals. The stage has very little stage volume but the drums are so loud we can't even here the vocals due to the tight stage. All it is is drums. I wear ear plugs on most of the shows, but the drummer is mad and hits even harder, where the earplugs aren't even working. I'm angry, and at the point I'm ready to walk. And that's not how I act ever. By the end of the night it's dead, the entire crowd is in the other half of the bar, as it's too much. The drummer and his loud kit single handely killed the gig. If you say anything to him, he pouts and says they shouldn't have live music then. He is a joy to work with.

Yes, it was a lower volume room, but it would have been easily managed if the drummer would have had an electronic kit. It simply would have been a non-issue.

In another project I work with a pro level drummer with a modern electronic kit. In fact the pads go in regular drum shells, and by looking at the kit you would never know they weren't real drums. The cymbals are low volume models as well. He and I run in ear monitoring, and he has an amp he sets up by his drums as well. The only way you can tell a difference is due to the fact an regular acoustic set could never sound as good as his drums do.

There is no mic bleed, no howling feedback on stage, and the levels are down to a respectful level. In short, you can mix the drums into the stage instead of them overpowering everything.

These days with the technology available, why don't more drummers go that route? You don't see full stack Marshalls or multi 810 cabs on stage for smaller gigs, we have evolved. Why do drummers use (and bands members accept) their outdated instruments?

Modern electronic drums are amazing, offer better sounds than acoustics on stage, and are controllable in a mix. With an amp on stage, there is no weak spot. It just works. The modern triggering system is just as sensitive as acoustics according to the drummer. So much of the issues we have during live shows center around the acoustic drums. Why not step into the new century?

Yes I know there are drummers that play acoustics that are very manageable on stages, and yes I know there are shields they can use, but using electronic drums takes all that away, and makes it very easy for the sound engineer to get a great sound.

I know this will be met with skepticism, change often does. I'm not asking for anything but drummers to catch up to the rest of the band as far as technology. My amp has a volume knob. So should the drummer. At the start of the year that band will cease, as the singer and I are working on a new project. Most of the reason stems from the heavy handed drummers that style of music lends itself to. I just won't put up with out of control drummers any more.

I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. Am I out of line, or and I just using common sense where it's not been applied?

Since your asking me, I'm all for it. I will say this, I also work with some pros that sound great without being loud using real drums.

My question is, why are you working with this guy? This is just as counterproductive as someone that can't play at all. The effect is the same. It's bad for business.
 
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I hear what you're saying.. I'm wondering - as a non-drummer - if these things actually work.. If they DO, our drummer is getting some for his upcoming birthday ;)

I've played with a fantastic drummer who can play with the same intensity at different volumes, then I've played with a drummer who's in itself a good drummer, apart from the volume-thing. It's the only "acoustic" thing in our band, so hard to regulate, esp for late-night outdoor gigs a bit of a challenge. If he has these sticks, would he still be able to beat the snot out of his skins, just producing lower volume??

Regards
Mark

I don't recall ever meeting a decent drummer that didn't already have these, and mallets, in their stick bag.

They're fantastic for different expression, and great for keeping volume down.

Hit e-drums with rods or mallets, or a metal spoon, or slide your stick along the side of a cymbal, rim or shell, and the output is all identical.

Pretty much zero extended techniques are possible on e-drums. And that's OK for music that has zero variance in its expression played for an audience that has zero interest in same.
 
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I think I may have found a niche to fill. Since almost everyone on here doesn't like/hates e-drums, I should start playing and learn how to play on e-drums. Treat it like playing a new instrument. My hearing will still be intact and small gigs that don't require Tommy Lee on drums will be mine!

I had been thinking about this recently for a trio that could play low volume gigs in backyards, coffee shops, living rooms, stores etc with an e-kit, small guitar and bass amps and p.a. for vocals. No blast just music at a reasonable sound level.

Loud Rock star wannabe drummers that think they are God's gift suck! I've dealt with that before and won't do it again.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm not a great drummer but I bet I could get some gigs if I could advertise as a low volume drummer.
 
Tons of responses here from pro or pro-level folks, for and against. I would like to say that I think at that level you're more likely to get good drummers who can control volume in the first place. I've seen some amazing cats play at near whisper levels. Not metal or funk, mind you. But still enough groove that I know from my own experience trying to learn drums that a novice could not pull off at a low volume level.

From the perspective of us Dad Rockers...

Frankly, I think that for the average weekend bar/cover band with poor PA and mix, etc..., a cheap e-kit would probably sound better. Most weekend warrior bands just sound awful, period. In fact, even good bands can sound awful, given room issues, poor mix/eq, whatever. For a good chunk of bands, it's not like the fact that they have real drums is making the difference between awful and barely tolerable. Most likely the opposite, in fact. Ensemble just gets more and more difficult the more electric instruments you add the mix. But it's drums, acoustic drums, that makes poor ensemble just so much louder.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm far more willing to sit through yet another everyday barely average local/bar band if my ears aren't compressing. I tend to think that average audiences think similarly. We lament every day about the decline of live music. But I have yet to see anyone argue about the likelihood that kids at home are exercising control over their iPhone volumes.

My current band doesn't have a drummer. We either play sans drums, or use drum tracks from our recordings. Yeah, it's not the full monty. But at least friends, family, and kiddos can hear us play without their ears ringing after. I've been toying with looking for a drummer. But no one has told us that we suck more without one. If and when we have to cross that bridge, if I can't find either a good volume controlled player (not very likely at our current level), or one willing to at least try an e-kit, I'm just gonna stick with canned drum tracks. In the end it won't make any difference, anyway.
 
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But I have yet to see anyone argue about the likelihood that kids at home are exercising control over their iPhone volumes.

Agreed. I've often asserted that bad bands onstage too long playing poor versions of self-indulgent set lists at far too high volume is what cleared the way for the resurgence of DJ's, along with typical generational/cyclical/technological turns.

And by "bad bands" I mean in bad in every way - dress, attitude, lack of prefessionalism or promotion, etc. etc. etc. That'll never compete with stylish youth willing to hustle.

Just like abysmal cookie-cutter glam "metal" bands shreeding through their unlistenable rack-mount processors ended the garish 80's music and fashion trends, not Nirvana and not grunge.

The enemy is us. Some of us, anyway.
 
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The only complaint we got using mid-90s tech was, "You guys sound too much like a CD."

I know the V-Drums we used in the early 2000's were far more sophisticated. I wasn't involved in putting that system together, but I believe the pads responded more like drum skins than rubber blocks and had about four zones. If you hit in a different zone it changed the sound a bit, so you had bit more of a realistic sense of touch. Surely the technology has advance more since then.

I always thought the sound was pretty decent...most drummers hated them though. One exception was a dude who was kind of lazy. He loved the TrapKat because it only took him about 10 minutes to set up or tear down.

I have run sound for a band that had a drummer who use a nice V Drum set. In fact, the whole band ran DI. They did a lot of corporate gigs. It was kind of cool to be able to turn down the whole band if asked :)
 
Jumping in late,
I've gigged with the same drummer playing 90's alt rock for the last 28-years.
He can make your ears bleed just with his cymbals.
However, he is an amazing person, musician, vocalist and human-being.
I have been in and out of several projects that I have started while gigging with him, and since just starting a new project, I asked him to be involved, but with one condition; that he go 100% digital.
At first he was like "No WAY!", and for all the bs reasons I have read in this post...
Here's the deal.
He bought a brand new Alesis Strike Pro kit.
This thing is amazing!
Not only does he love the actual "feel" of the snare, but the cymbals too.
He loves it!
And, this kit sounds amazing!
So flexible.
I'm with the OP on this one.
If you want to play out in these lower volume rooms, or be asked back, or even better yet, invited to play some wealthy-to do's birthday bash at a small CC, tell your drummer to get with it....
 
"If you say anything to him, he pouts and says they shouldn't have live music then."

Is he the drummer in a punk band in 1977 playing at CBGBs? No? Then play for the room, buddy.

Seriously, he's in a cover band, right? He's playing as entertainment, not for pure artistry! That's an insane mentality.
 
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I've played with a few drummers using electronic kits. The first was a dude with the Roland V-Drums. Currently, its a guy with a Yamaha e-drum set. I have found the technology has definitely improved. The sampled sounds come off pretty good. Our currently drummer was in a Big 10 marching band as well as numerous bands using acoustic drums. He told me recently he wouldn't go back to acoustic drum for live gigs because he has too much freedom in choosing multiple kits for whatever particular songs he plays. The guy took the time to program his drum brain to save all kinds of kits for any of the particular songs we play. We play alot of weddings, corporate gigs as well as some taverns and community events. When we do the casinos, i was told by an entertainment director they hire us back time and time again because we know how to control our sound. There not liking for rock concert levels. When you play with acoustic drums and even really good drummers, it's not always possible to play to the room itself. Plus, I've played with many who only have one level, Hulk Smash level of hitting drums and cymbals.

Also, as the guy who runs sound for the band, the drummer hands me one cord to the mixer, he sets the levels of his drums and cymbal on the drum brain. I can always properly mix the band where he is heard and felt to the crowd. It is a little barebones with e-drums, but the trade off is worth it.

I agree with most here. small club, hard hitters are ridiculous. the drummer described by the OP is not a guy I'd want to perform with. Send him on his way
 

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