• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Why don't the big boys make good cabs?

#101
SanDiegoHarry said:
We'll, let's consider your favorite brand - Ampeg. I'm sure they make a 4x10 that is liked by some folks, right? Let's see - the SVT-4x10HLF - Retailing for $800 at Sweetwater.

It is, in basic design, the same thing as a Bergantino HD410, that retails at $1230 at Bass Center of Chicago. So why the price difference, when we both know that Ampeg has a very large advertising budget?
Do folks think that it's because the folks at Bergantino are insanely greedy, or could it be that they just use better parts / more expensive construction methods?
Click to expand...

Or it's just that Ampeg buy ten times as many parts and sell ten times as many units, therefor can operate within more consumer-friendly margins..

----

Say what you want, but TalkBass is a niche group with some really strange ideas about what bass should be sometimes. When most people take up bass guitar, they want it to sound like a bass guitar, and that sound is going to be a P through an Ampeg nine times out of ten in popular recordings. That is why the big guys make amps that sound traditional, because that is what sells, and that is what people want.
 
#102
People on this forum need to learn to accept that they are the minority and don't know better than everyone else just because they've heard of a few 'boutique' builders. Makes you come across like the guy who does a little bit of programming on his PC then calls you an idiot for buying a Mac to check your email with. Not a good look.
 
#103
Venom of God said:
Or it's just that Ampeg buy ten times as many parts and sell ten times as many units, therefor can operate within more consumer-friendly margins..

----

Say what you want, but TalkBass is a niche group with some really strange ideas about what bass should be sometimes. When most people take up bass guitar, they want it to sound like a bass guitar, and that sound is going to be a P through an Ampeg nine times out of ten in popular recordings. That is why the big guys make amps that sound traditional, because that is what sells, and that is what people want.
Click to expand...

Possible... But doubtful. They also have to cut their margins to keep distros and retailers happy, as well as put ads in every freakin' music magazine ever.

But let's be clear: That this Ampeg cab is less $$ than the Berg does not mean it's not a good cab - I'm sure it's fine. In fact, were I looking for a 4x10 that was non-neo, I'd consider it if I couldn't afford something "more".

There are some of major manufacturers who make cabs that are, in my opinion, just not very good. I won't call them out lest SOMEONE get their feelings hurt for buying one - but cheap materials + shoddy construction = bad gear no matter what brand, right?
 
#105
SanDiegoHarry said:
We'll, let's consider your favorite brand - Ampeg. I'm sure they make a 4x10 that is liked by some folks, right? Let's see - the SVT-4x10HLF - Retailing for $800 at Sweetwater.

It is, in basic design, the same thing as a Bergantino HD410, that retails at $1230 at Bass Center of Chicago. So why the price difference, when we both know that Ampeg has a very large advertising budget?
Do folks think that it's because the folks at Bergantino are insanely greedy, or could it be that they just use better parts / more expensive construction methods?
Click to expand...
Define "better." Sure looks like they use Eminence ceramic speakers, baltic birch, and black tolex, just like Ampeg.
 
#106
Venom of God said:
People on this forum need to learn to accept that they are the minority and don't know better than everyone else just because they've heard of a few 'boutique' builders. Makes you come across like the guy who does a little bit of programming on his PC then calls you an idiot for buying a Mac to check your email with. Not a good look.
Click to expand...

This is the same sort of argument Fender owners use to win Internet debates- shouting down their perceived opposition with sheer numbers built on being the only company around when the recordz111 were made. Why do you care that they're a minority, and why should they "accept" that without questioning whether another product can be better?

Why can't we debate with specs and numbers instead of with "what's always been/worked/appealed to (insert group or business here __________ )"? If these guys know about and have played cabs I haven't, with clarity and specs I'm not accustomed to in what I'm playing now, I'm always interested in hearing about them. I don't anticipate needing anything bigger than a 1 x 12 in the near future, so the greatness of the Ampeg 810 (and it IS great) doesn't matter to me. If the OP is trolling, he is. That doesn't mean there isn't a place to study different designs objectively, without making what's going on now some kind of unquestioned point of reference.

I certainly hope technology can manage to improve on an instrument (that includes the amp. Slab bass, no amp = no sound) that's less than a doggone century old. If it can't, maybe we've become far too subjective in our search for improvement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lomo and SanDiegoHarry
#108
It's not what you use; it's how you use it. Fender does just fine, IMO, and currently competes well against brands like GK and Hartke. Most brand snobbery is pure, shallow consumerism, driven by opinions, esoteric specs and numbers that don't always equate with real-world performance. I fart in its general direction.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Venom of God, hintz, tonemachine and 1 other person
#109
SanDiegoHarry said:
Possible... But doubtful. They also have to cut their margins to keep distros and retailers happy, as well as put ads in every freakin' music magazine ever.

But let's be clear: That this Ampeg cab is less $$ than the Berg does not mean it's not a good cab - I'm sure it's fine. In fact, were I looking for a 4x10 that was non-neo, I'd consider it if I couldn't afford something "more".
Click to expand...
Well aren't you Mama's special little angel?
 
#110
hintz said:
Not to derail ... But I won't argue with you on most of what you said, but I will say that with a commercial cab I engage the "hi boost" on my 800RB and it sounds great, with a fEARful it sounds like pure noise, I now have treble almost off!! I would never do that with another cab, just my experience so far...

I also said I *wouldn't* fault anyone for using, well,any piece of gear they like either... I loved the ampeg rig I owned 10 years ago, but my tastes have changed since then...

I'll also point out that I did say I don't think anyone *hides* behind cab coloration...

Also I'm fully aware of playing live as a do it *fulltime* professionally and get paid salary, so yes I know my cab wont compete with a full on PA system, for my main gig I use IEM's, I built my fEARful because I got used to that sound and I plan on using it in the future for situations where I wont have IEM's...so you getting into diminishing returns, FOH is loud enough, etc, etc, is pointless

So ill enjoy the cab I built for myself, and you(or anyone else) can enjoy what you have(as I pretty much said before)
Click to expand...

I'm glad you enjoy it. It's good stuff and I did say/imply that all that stuff is nice and artisan crafted and is valued for more than just sound-producing ability.

I started just responding to the "kid at GC" which didn't ring true. Im not a paid musician but I can have good taste in sound and certainly I can counter an assertion that doesn't ring true, despite my being unpaid for my musicianship. Thanks for your Army service by the way. You guys are baaaad in the music skills department.

As a related aside and not to attempt to discredit anything but just pointing out that people get blinders on and their perceived experiences are biased by their previously determined conclusions rather than being based on open-minded reality... we used to have an Air Force band keyboardist/MD at church and he told me that the bassists have access to EVERYTHING all sitting on a rack at base. Any bass imaginable can be had and all the standards are stocked. He said that at the time the current bassists each use Fodera (each guy can order whatever he wants after x amount of service time and the Air Force buys it for him to keep... one must wonder, based on that financial arrangement, if the bassists would have such scrutinizing tastes if they had to pay for their equipment. But that's another tangent.... as a former military person and a current public service worker, I am not out of line in saying that I know very well how the "it's not my money, I'm underpaid so screw it, give me the expensive one" mentality works). Anyway, he said the Stingrays just sit on the rack because "they just have one sound." That notion is comical, a cursory review of YouTube, iTunes, etc will show that Stingrays can be used anywhere (just like almost any other bass) and made to vary widely in sound. End of tangent.

The diminishing marginal returns/gig volume stuff in last post was not directed at you but in response to the sentiment of people (and the OP, apparently) who don't understand that off-the-shelf, big guy stuff is, indeed, frequently great for all practical purposes. Yes, we ordinary knuckleheads can be wrong and misguided by advertisement and herd mentality but how do we explain that the vast majority of pros are using big guy stuff.... not because they need a free $600 cab or a few thousand endorsement dollars? It's because the stuff truly works exceptionally well for them, and they certainly would be using boutique stuff if it really was a significant difference in real world gig situations and if it earned then more respect and gigs from their musician/producer peers- let alone if it better pleased their own discerning ears (and "nobody" seems to be mic'ing cabs in studio anymore so...).

Sorry for the misunderstanding that it seemed directed at you. On TB, one must close all holes when opining lest one become fodder for trolls who seek out gaps that most sensible people fill in correctly with reasonable-minded assumptions of the poster's intent. And, in this case now, only to be thorough here so that I don't have to reply to trolls who would now be inclined to say I was nitpicking/trolling you, if they are true to usual form; I replied to your explicit "GC kid" example with my experience that says it was not accurate since most cheap cabs CAN reproduce mistakes just as good as an expensive one.

Peace.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: hintz
#113
SanDiegoHarry said:
Possible... But doubtful. They also have to cut their margins to keep distros and retailers happy, as well as put ads in every freakin' music magazine ever.

But let's be clear: That this Ampeg cab is less $$ than the Berg does not mean it's not a good cab - I'm sure it's fine. In fact, were I looking for a 4x10 that was non-neo, I'd consider it if I couldn't afford something "more".

There are some of major manufacturers who make cabs that are, in my opinion, just not very good. I won't call them out lest SOMEONE get their feelings hurt for buying one - but cheap materials + shoddy construction = bad gear no matter what brand, right?
Click to expand...

It must be considered that the big guys can enjoy economies of scale and can make stuff at less cost per unit than smaller shops. Cheaper does not equal lesser all of the time. Yes, big companies in all fields (but not all companies) buy small shops and ruin them but it's not necessarily true that big equals bad, or even lesser.
 
#116
JimmyM said:
Nobody's micing cabs anymore? That will certainly come as a surprise to all the current bassists in popular music who mic cabs.
Click to expand...
That's why I put it in quotes, that is frequently used colloquially to connote gwneralization, rightfully or wrongfully. I frequently read "we just went direct" and I rarely read anymore about mic'ing bass in studio. But to the point, are the big guys WIDELY using boutique stuff while gigging and endorsing off the shelf stuff? I'm all ears and NOT trolling....
 
#117
tonemachine said:
That's why I put it in quotes, that is frequently used colloquially to connote gwneralization, rightfully or wrongfully. I frequently read "we just went direct" and I rarely read anymore about mic'ing bass in studio. But to the point, are the big guys WIDELY using boutique stuff while gigging and endorsing off the shelf stuff? I'm all ears and NOT trolling....
Click to expand...
I don't know. I imagine some do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sartori
#118
:rolleyes::rolleyes:I think a lot of it has to do with peoples perception and expectations.
Someone pointed out that many of us expect a bass to sound like
a P played thru an SVT.
Hey, no doubt that is a fine and very common sound.

However, it is not the only way a bass can sound.

Maybe, in time more of us will come to expect to hear a more hifi sound.
It's not like it has never happened, but it hasn't been mainstream for 40 years.

An analogy I thought of invloves the long gone Ford flathead V8.
Once it caught on, it became the car engine that everything else was compared to.
By the time it ceased production, it had been technicly obsolete for years.
Why wasn't it replaced earlier?
Because people bought all they could build!
People bought what they knew and understood.
It was 'normal' , every one was OK with it and, after all, it still worked.
Nevermind that GM had high compression OHV engines, Chrysler had Hemis
and Jaguar had overhead cams.

In 1954 Ford had finnally replaced the ol' flathead.
So many people demanded it anyway that a good number of cars were built
using up spare parts to produce out of production engines. :rolleyes:
 
  • Like
Reactions: RBrownBass, tonemachine and lomo
#119
tonemachine said:
It must be considered that the big guys can enjoy economies of scale and can make stuff at less cost per unit than smaller shops. Cheaper does not equal lesser all of the time. Yes, big companies in all fields (but not all companies) buy small shops and ruin them but it's not necessarily true that big equals bad, or even lesser.
Click to expand...

Agreed - it doesn't ALWAYS mean bad - but sometimes does, particularly when company slaps an otherwise reputable name on cheaply made gear - and we ALL know how often that happens.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tonemachine

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back