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Why don't the big boys make good cabs?
- Thread starter tubster
- Start date
I would be curious to know how many who have actually, really tried several of the new designs end up preferring the more traditional cabs. The number who have tried the new breed is still only a vanishingly small %age of the total market.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
In my experience at quite a few TB GTGs, a substantial majority of the attendees would probably fit in that category, but it'd depend a lot on whether you consider something like Berg cabs as being traditional or not.
When I was 37 I expected that by the time I reached my present age no one anywhere would be unwrapping and wrapping cables, that EVERYTHING would be wireless. HA!
I'm willing to bet "The Big Boys" will outlast all of the OP's listed good brands.
So true/\...
Outside of TB, most bassists have never heard of *any* boutique brands, and they don't care to know either, this is both seasoned player and beginners alike....
If I do get asked about my tone(almost never), I point out my Darkglass B7K, "never heard of it" is the reply I get...most guys know about the Sansamp, granted they have been around at least 20 years or more...
I also wont fault someone for not knowing about fEARful, and i will say that they *aren't * for everyone anyways...
I refuse to get all snobby about someone loving their Ampeg setup(I still regret selling the svt2 I had), or any other "mainstream" company, my sonic goals are different from alot of others, these hi-fi rigs reveal alot of unpleasantness and limitations in gear...
Imagine if some kid went into a GC and they had something like a fEARful and this kid could hear every inconsistency in his sound, that wouldn't be very encouraging to alot of people, me, I wanna hear my mistakes so I can correct them, *and* I want to hear *exactly* what the soundguy hears, so I can trust them when they say "too much treble/bass, whatever"
Plus most people like some coloration from their cabs, and that's totally fine(and no, I'm *not* saying people hide behind their tone either)
To OP, like others said its simply the cost to mass produce high end cabs!! My 1212/6/1 was *not* cheap , even if I cut everything myself and didn't order the flatpack, the drivers and x-over parts set me back, but now I have a rig that will last me forever(hopefully)
To the OP: Probably because of low demand. With all my years experience, and my playing schedule (3 to 5 times a week) I cannot justify me owning a $1000 plus cabinet. I do own several amp set-ups, including a small Eden rig that I probably have over $1000 invested (CXC110/D112XLT). There have been occasions where at a festival, back line was provided, and the bass amp was some exotic amp/cab set-up and yes it sounded great.
But if Eden, Ampeg, Fender, and all made $2000 boutique cabs, I would not even consider one. Maybe if I was making like $2000 a night. And in that line of thought, I may very well represent the majority.
But if Eden, Ampeg, Fender, and all made $2000 boutique cabs, I would not even consider one. Maybe if I was making like $2000 a night. And in that line of thought, I may very well represent the majority.
I've been playing bass since 1968 and to be honest, Raw drivers are a lot better, SS amps are a lot better and the Cabinets from everyone are a lot better. 3 way speakers have been around for quite some time now and while they have a dedicated following. I've owned 2 of them, a SWR Triad and a Accugrove Whappo Jr. Great cabs but I don't think the Triad cut any better than a single 15 nor did the Whappo Jr. cut any better than a run of the mill 2x12 cab. The big thing these days is "lite weight" and the neo speakers are the thing and I don't think they are going anywhere as everyone is offering them as a premium option. Boutique makers have to offer something different or no one would notice them at all.
What I think is crazy is that it seems like bass players are more into crazy niche amps and pedals than guitar players are, and there are way more guitar players than bass players in the world. Most of the guitar players I know roll with common Boss, MXR, Behringer, or Digitech pedals, largely stick to Marshall amps (with a smattering of Randal, Mesa and Orange), and off the rack guitars. To them boutique is a special model of Strat or Les Paul guitar and maybe a Blackstar or Rivera amp.
They are supposed to be the "rock gods" but they stare at my setup without open mouthed confusion. "Why are these so light? I've never heard of Lakland. I know MXR but what are the rest of these pedals." Yeah, I'm the simpleton for playing bass. Riiiiight.
I have an amazing Fender Pro 115 bass enclosure - they were paired for the TCB series but I use a Peavey Max 160 head and sometimes a Fender M-80 160 watt head - the speaker is killer! Have not yet paired it with the Shuttlemax 9.2 however (Genz Benz).
Well, like Rod I have owned my share of boutique and well known bass cabs over the years. The thread's title is a little inflammatory taken alone as IMO the "big boys do make good cabs". The new Fender neo cabs are quite superb, and the Ampeg 810 is yet to be overtaken for good reasons. The new Ampeg 212AV is stunningly good and not overly expensive in comparison to boutique cabs. If I was the OP I would seriously consider one or two Ampeg 112AVs since this is the direction in which he wishes to move. There tends to be an assumption sometimes (and I have been as guilty of this as anyone) that if it is not boutique and is mass produced it is not so good. TB can encourage us to think this way sometimes. I dispute this, I think the new ranges from Fender and Ampeg (and probably others with which I am less familiar) have addressed the changing market and through their bigger marketing ability can do it at a price point which is difficult for smaller manufacturers to achieve. You don't always get what you pay for, although I have yet to hear a bad Bergantino cab. That said, I may be in the minority here but I actually preferred my small Ampeg cabs to my Berg HT112. That said the Berg NV cabs are modern miracles, once tried it is difficult to let them go.
Sorry, didn't really want to get into specific manufacturers vs others, but difficult not to given the thread's title.
I think the amp market is like the field of dreams; if they build it they will come. If the big box manufacturers released newer tech, and marketed like they do the traditional designs, people would buy it. There have been plenty of off the wall designs that have sold well, but at the time people were not ready. I think the market is ready for something new. Look at Warwick. That brand has launched like a rocket, and though they have traditional designs that are more affordable, the Helborg stuff is all biamp with cabs tuned to a specific purpose. Although the cabs are not engineered to the extent they could be, it at least shows that there is a market and a big box manufacturer can do it.
I guess I consider Berg cabs to be the cutting edge of non-crossed over designs. Considering that they're priced in the same range as some "super" cabs, I don't consider them "conventional". A grand for a CN 210, before shipping, taxes or cover, puts them in another category for me.
Well there IS Avatar but I doubt they sell as many TB cabs as they do 410's. Even Greenboy makes a 215 tweeterless cab now.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
I can see that, but of course there also are Berg cabs with 6 inch mid drivers, the IP series, various older mixed driver size cabs, etc., and then some fairly traditional if boutique priced designs like the 6 X 10. In any case, if I include Berg cabs in my assessment a whole lot more people at GTGs own or at least like "newer" designs, for sure. IME people at GTGs are mostly too polite to diss gear face to face, but if you track what they're actually using a year or three later that probably says a lot.
I know for sure Mesa had some weird 15/6/horn type cabs in the 80s. WAAAAY before the fearLESS/FULL stuff.
As others have mentioned though, way more people look for a 210/410/610/810/215/115 setup than a multi-size driver config. Most folks look to players they like for that kind of thing, and those are the cab types you tend to see (with some 12s thrown in here and there.)
Compounding that, is the fact that in that list of "big boy" manufacturers there really aren't many that are bass focused and aren't super focused on their own heritage. Mesa is more of a guitar amp company that also makes bass gear IMHO. Fender, Ampeg, et al are the same AND have a heritage to maintain (e.g. bassman style cabs, in the case of Fender, SVT style stuff in the case of Ampeg)
Eden is a weird case, they were bought and sold several times, and TBH since their WT550 and XST cabs were released I have not seen a ton of innovation, or even actual product refreshes or revamps, from them. They released some class D stuff, but I have not seen a lot of positive reviews about that gear. As a result I'd say their R&D budget is pretty minimal, so the chances of getting a multi-driver type cab from them is about nil.
I could keep going down the list, but again, I do not see a lot of "big" players in the bass amp/cab field that have a large enough R&D budget, and with strong enough desire to innovate for that to be a reality anytime soon.
Maybe Genzler will take care of that for us?
As others have mentioned though, way more people look for a 210/410/610/810/215/115 setup than a multi-size driver config. Most folks look to players they like for that kind of thing, and those are the cab types you tend to see (with some 12s thrown in here and there.)
Compounding that, is the fact that in that list of "big boy" manufacturers there really aren't many that are bass focused and aren't super focused on their own heritage. Mesa is more of a guitar amp company that also makes bass gear IMHO. Fender, Ampeg, et al are the same AND have a heritage to maintain (e.g. bassman style cabs, in the case of Fender, SVT style stuff in the case of Ampeg)
Eden is a weird case, they were bought and sold several times, and TBH since their WT550 and XST cabs were released I have not seen a ton of innovation, or even actual product refreshes or revamps, from them. They released some class D stuff, but I have not seen a lot of positive reviews about that gear. As a result I'd say their R&D budget is pretty minimal, so the chances of getting a multi-driver type cab from them is about nil.
I could keep going down the list, but again, I do not see a lot of "big" players in the bass amp/cab field that have a large enough R&D budget, and with strong enough desire to innovate for that to be a reality anytime soon.
Maybe Genzler will take care of that for us?
I don't know. I think this, once again, comes down to personal preference and the tone someone is searching for. I think Orange cabinets are fantastic. They are loaded with good speakers and well thought out. I've been lucky enough to play out of quite a few great cabs and I when I tried the Orange obc 4x10 it gave me perma smile for a few hours. I think the fact that they are so expensive here in the US is what keeps more folks from using them.
I love the well thought out designs of fearful and fearless. I've owned a few. But the sterile sound is just not for everyone. I was about to have a Dually built before I bought the Orange cabs. I asked the builder a few questions about overdrive and fuzz and his response was "why do you want your bass to sound like that?". And thats cool. I get that. Can't teach and old dog new tricks. But I quickly realized that I was searching in the wrong place.
I love the well thought out designs of fearful and fearless. I've owned a few. But the sterile sound is just not for everyone. I was about to have a Dually built before I bought the Orange cabs. I asked the builder a few questions about overdrive and fuzz and his response was "why do you want your bass to sound like that?". And thats cool. I get that. Can't teach and old dog new tricks. But I quickly realized that I was searching in the wrong place.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
- 23,079
- 46,050
- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
If the bass in your avatar sounds anything like my old Bean, I know exactly why you want your bass to sound that way!
I would think greenboy, Alex, Duke, et al are quite happy that the "big boys" aren't doing what they do.
Fire proof suit on
I think the guys that call cabs "sterile" are finally hearing what they really sound like. and not digging it.
I think the guys that call cabs "sterile" are finally hearing what they really sound like. and not digging it.
