Why don't the big boys make good cabs?

[SanDiegoHarry]

Define "better." Sure looks like they use Eminence ceramic speakers, baltic birch, and black tolex, just like Ampeg.

Better becomes subjective very quickly, I would agree.

 

[Jefff]

I can get my hands on and Ampeg 810 in any decent sized city in America. Greenboy or Berg?, not so much. If I am on the road, that matters to me.

 

[hintz]

Thanks for saying so, and thanks for *your* service , also I think I joined the wrong branch of service now that you told me this(LOL we don't get to keep any basses), I suspect the air force has more $$$$ than the army does....

Anyways, the kid at GC was a probably a bad example that I threw out there....maybe using IEM's is a better (but more extreme) example for what I was trying to get at...single drivers are terrible for bass, nothing but string noise/make you think you suck,dual drivers are where its at for bass...if a beginner heard themselves through single drivers, they would probably wanna quit(I know I did the first time I used them)

For the record, i still really like hartke cabs, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another if I had to and they're not as much as a mesa, ampeg, etc, the big manufacturers can't afford to make stuff the same way as the little guys, and not everyone likes super hi-fi cabs anyways , and that's fine, who am I to say they are of no good

I'm glad you enjoy it. It's good stuff and I did say/imply that all that stuff is nice and artisan crafted and is valued for more than just sound-producing ability.

I started just responding to the "kid at GC" which didn't ring true. Im not a paid musician but I can have good taste in sound and certainly I can counter an assertion that doesn't ring true, despite my being unpaid for my musicianship. Thanks for your Army service by the way. You guys are baaaad in the music skills department.

As a related aside and not to attempt to discredit anything but just pointing out that people get blinders on and their perceived experiences are biased by their previously determined conclusions rather than being based on open-minded reality... we used to have an Air Force band keyboardist/MD at church and he told me that the bassists have access to EVERYTHING all sitting on a rack at base. Any bass imaginable can be had and all the standards are stocked. He said that at the time the current bassists each use Fodera (each guy can order whatever he wants after x amount of service time and the Air Force buys it for him to keep... one must wonder, based on that financial arrangement, if the bassists would have such scrutinizing tastes if they had to pay for their equipment. But that's another tangent.... as a former military person and a current public service worker, I am not out of line in saying that I know very well how the "it's not my money, I'm underpaid so screw it, give me the expensive one" mentality works). Anyway, he said the Stingrays just sit on the rack because "they just have one sound." That notion is comical, a cursory review of YouTube, iTunes, etc will show that Stingrays can be used anywhere (just like almost any other bass) and made to vary widely in sound. End of tangent.

The diminishing marginal returns/gig volume stuff in last post was not directed at you but in response to the sentiment of people (and the OP, apparently) who don't understand that off-the-shelf, big guy stuff is, indeed, frequently great for all practical purposes. Yes, we ordinary knuckleheads can be wrong and misguided by advertisement and herd mentality but how do we explain that the vast majority of pros are using big guy stuff.... not because they need a free $600 cab or a few thousand endorsement dollars? It's because the stuff truly works exceptionally well for them, and they certainly would be using boutique stuff if it really was a significant difference in real world gig situations and if it earned then more respect and gigs from their musician/producer peers- let alone if it better pleased their own discerning ears (and "nobody" seems to be mic'ing cabs in studio anymore so...).

Sorry for the misunderstanding that it seemed directed at you. On TB, one must close all holes when opining lest one become fodder for trolls who seek out gaps that most sensible people fill in correctly with reasonable-minded assumptions of the poster's intent. And, in this case now, only to be thorough here so that I don't have to reply to trolls who would now be inclined to say I was nitpicking/trolling you, if they are true to usual form; I replied to your explicit "GC kid" example with my experience that says it was not accurate since most cheap cabs CAN reproduce mistakes just as good as an expensive one.

Peace.

 

[redhed]

I don't know...this may be a crazy idea, but maybe people like the regular bass cabs better?

Bingo!

 

[Smooth_bass88]

The irony here is that 99% of sound guys won't even mic the bass amp anyway. So the 'tone' of the cabinet may ultimately be irrelevant.

 

[rodl2005]

[/QUOTE]="oboylebass, post: 17587808, member: 81861"]The irony here is that 99% of sound guys won't even mic the bass amp anyway. So the 'tone' of the cabinet may ultimately be irrelevant.[/QUOTE]


The tone of my cab is NEVER irrelevant to me. I play for enjoyment. ... And $$ but that's a bonus. .. I care greatly about how I sound onstage. Whether I'm going thru a DI or not

 

[JimmyM]

It's a myth that they can't hear your cab. Got live mics on your stage? Play louder than you can get with a B-15? They can hear your cab.

 

[R Baer]

With all the new technology and know-how that is out there, it seems surprising that the traditional bass amp makers, Fender, Mesa, etc etc have not embraced these new ideas and incorporated them into their lines; perhaps as a 'premier' brand? With their greater economies of scale, they could then market them at premium prices.

Maybe Bergantino, Baer, Barefaced, Greenboy etc might license some designs to get them into the game. I am sure there must be compelling reasons why the big boys continue to sling raw drivers into boxes.

I think the market balances itself out nicely as it is. The big boys are big because, well... they make gear that is finely tailored to their market and to what they find generates the best sales and profits. If you are a company and you find out that your cabs in the $500 to $600 are outselling your $1000 cabs 10 to 1, then it only makes sense to focus your attention on the market that generates the biggest sales and leave the higher dollar cabs to the boutique guys. As for us little guys, I don't believe it's any magical cabinets and crossovers that make our cabinets perform they way they do. The "magic" lies in the use of very expensive premium drivers. Sure, there might be a difference between a cheap $10 crossover and one with a higher degree of engineering that cost $40 to build, but the difference between a $40 and $60 crossover gets harder to hear. The 'ol law of diminishing returns. The difference between a well braced cabinet and one with aerospace grade bracing that cost 3x as much to build, probably even less so.

So the big guys are smart. They've learned where to focus their money to strike a balance between sound quality and price in a way that works for them and their clients. I certainly don't knock them for doing so. It's obviously a much better way of staying in business than my business model. lol

 

[winegamd]

In all honesty this argument applies to consumers in all areas of audio reproduction. Bose has been selling the same crappy 3-4" speakers for 40 years, but they tune them to accentuate freq. that make them stand out. They sound really amazing for a 4" listening to them alone, but sound like utter crap next to a real quality hifi speaker.

Same goes for beats headphones, and why subs are the first speakers replaced in a car and the importance of the other 19900hz are totally ignored.

The average consumer is exposed to what they are told "sounds good" and never take the time to experience or learn what good sound is. Most people can only experience what is readily available at best buy or GC. If they can't experience it easily they will never know what they are missing.

After a while they are programmed and used to it, so when they do hear an accurate full range representation it sounds thin or sterile.

 

[JimmyM]

In all honesty this argument applies to consumers in all areas of audio reproduction. Bose has been selling the same crappy 3-4" speakers for 40 years, but they tune them to accentuate freq. that make them stand out. They sound really amazing for a 4" listening to them alone, but sound like utter crap next to a real quality hifi speaker.

Same goes for beats headphones, and why subs are the first speakers replaced in a car and the importance of the other 19900hz are totally ignored.

The average consumer is exposed to what they are told "sounds good" and never take the time to experience or learn what good sound is. Most people can only experience what is readily available at best buy or GC. If they can't experience it easily they will never know what they are missing.

After a while they are programmed and used to it so when the do hear an accurate full range representation it sounds thin or sterile.

Programmed...LOL! Well I sure am glad you're smart enough to see through the smokescreen so you can educate everyone

Nobody's programmed. The people have spoken and they've chosen hyped sounds. They like big bass and drum sounds, and they like bright cymbals and vocals. I always add bass and treble to my radios and stereos for that reason. Near-flat hi-fi response is available for anyone who wants it, but the reason that hyped sound sells has nothing to do with bring programmed...people simply like it better. I pretty much never play with a flat EQ. There's always at least a little bit of scoop in my favorite tones, and sometimes a pretty significant bass boost, too. Most of my favorite bass tones from others aren't flat response, either. Your claim assumes mass stupidity, but the market has had every opportunity to choose hi-fi flat response and by and large they choose hyped tones. They like good systems, but they want hyped tones coming out of them.

 

[Shardik]

I don't really understand what is so shocking about a musician who wants to hear a faithful reproduction of their instrument, amp, effects etc. particular voicing.

Nothing wrong about that, but it is a matter of perspective. I come from a world of enthusiast hifi, and can sympathise with your view.

My inner musician was dormant for years. When it woke up, I first picked up the electric guitar, and quickly learned that my hifi standards didn't apply. Where a hifi loudspeaker ideally should reproduce sound faithfully, the guitarists I met clearly had another view. For them, the guitar, strings, pickups, effects, amp and cab all served the same mission; to shape the sound they wanted.

After a while I started to see their point as a valid perspective and I think that carries over to bass, too. I have been to 2 outdoor concerts this last week (audience sizes of 41000 and 1600, respectively). In both the bassists used classic Ampeg 810 fridges on stage. These are professionals that can afford any equipment they want. I guess they get the sound they want when they include the sound coloration these cabs provide.

 

[Arjank]

As for us little guys, I don't believe it's any magical cabinets and crossovers that make our cabinets perform they way they do. The "magic" lies in the use of very expensive premium drivers. Sure, there might be a difference between a cheap $10 crossover and one with a higher degree of engineering that cost $40 to build, but the difference between a $40 and $60 crossover gets harder to hear.

It depends. If I look at my own 210 with coaxial mid/high unit it's both the drivers and the crossover. The crossover alone will cost ya more then a 100... and it took a lot of measuring and tweaking to get the result that I wanted. Without that crossover the cab wouldn't be what it is now and it would surely sound different. In certain situations/designs the cross-over will have a huge impact on how the system sounds and you won't get there with a run-off-the-mill crossover. I take crossovers seriously.

 

[gln1955]

Programmed...LOL! Well I sure am glad you're smart enough to see through the smokescreen so you can educate everyone

Nobody's programmed. The people have spoken and they've chosen hyped sounds. They like big bass and drum sounds, and they like bright cymbals and vocals. I always add bass and treble to my radios and stereos for that reason. Near-flat hi-fi response is available for anyone who wants it, but the reason that hyped sound sells has nothing to do with bring programmed...people simply like it better. I pretty much never play with a flat EQ. There's always at least a little bit of scoop in my favorite tones, and sometimes a pretty significant bass boost, too. Most of my favorite bass tones from others aren't flat response, either. Your claim assumes mass stupidity, but the market has had every opportunity to choose hi-fi flat response and by and large they choose hyped tones. They like good systems, but they want hyped tones coming out of them.

You betcha. The reason people like scooped eq is because of physiology. The human ear is tuned to be most responsive to midrange. That's where the important sounds are (human voice being the most important). Bass and treble falloff pretty quickly, and it just gets worse as we age of course. So, naturally we like to hear those frequencies boosted. We are indeed programmed, but not by manufacturers.

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

I don't know where OP got the notion that Mesa cabs weren't fantastic.

+1. I own a pair of Mesa PH212's, and IMO they're really great.

I also think Ampeg, Aguilar, and Eden make great cabs; they may not be the latest and greatest in modern technology, but IMO they do a fantastic job, especially for live playing.

 

[MegaSwing]

I think what many fail to acknowledge, if not altogether grasp, is that there are millions of ways to sound absolutely awesome, not just the way you yourself achieve it. Everyone's Eureka! moment is unique, as well as constantly evolving. This is a very inexact, nearly unquantifiable process—maybe even an art.

Whoa! Imagine that.

 

[lomo]

Better becomes subjective very quickly, I would agree.

Yeah-building a cab to be light and strong with 1/2" ply costs more, and for me, is worth more. However, my cabs get babied. If I was a touring musician and/or had roadies, a cab built more cheaply out of much thicker wood would be more bulletproof and desirable. There are different contexts/needs and therefore different criteria for what's "good". "Good" is a moving target in some ways. It's much like basses; less expensive basses made by larger companies are often great and do the job perfectly for most players. Some find those built by smaller, "boutique" companies to be better for their particular needs/wants......as far as TB discussions go: plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.......it's just bass

 

[Snowglo]

exactly. if you want a mass produced fearful just go buy a hifi audio speaker, same thing. they've been doing the 3 way 5 way 12 way etc design for longer than fearful has been a company. for those of us who play bass and not an audiofile stereo, well play the standard offerings.

Uneducated statement. Sorry, but not even close to the same thing. The drivers spec'd for GB design cabinets are far superior and deliver maximum, true SPL then some off the shelf hi-fi 3-way audio box. Based on the same design, yes. Apples and oranges in performance.

Let's face it. Consumers are lazy. The majority of the population will purchase brand X just because of the name and know nothing about actual performance or quality. This goes for any product. We are a programmed society. I certainly was for many years, and am still that way when it comes to a lot of products.

I've owned many name brand cabs in my days. Some expensive, some not so much. GB's cabs just work for me. I love hearing a true representation of "my" tone, and not worrying about a cabinet that farts out when it's pushed a little.

 

[bebass]

I think a lot of it has to do with peoples perception and expectations.
Someone pointed out that many of us expect a bass to sound like
a P played thru an SVT.
.....

As an aside, it has always been amazing to me that certain band members, throughout my long and illustrious (ha ha) career, have thought a bass is SUPPOSED to sound like thump thump thump. I have always preferred, even before "modern" became "modern", more punch, growl, and sustain. When asked can't I do thump thump thump I always just say no (well, unless is pays to say yes).

I think a lot of times advertising and majority use focuses on products that may not be made as well as other products. But from what I have seen, it is usually price driven and for the most part, if one cab costs 300 and the competition is 475 the majority purchases the 300 one, even if the other cab actually represents the better value by having better build quality and driver specs. And of course manufacturer spec claims influence a certain number of consumers even if they are extremely exaggerated. If folks see "2,000 watts" versus "500 watts" the immediate perception is that the former will be better and will sound louder - and due to psychoacoustics it DOES, in many cases, initially sound louder & better to them even if the actual output is the same or less.

 

[GregC]

Fire proof suit on

I think the guys that call cabs "sterile" are finally hearing what they really sound like. and not digging it.

The whole concept of what an electric bassist "really sounds like" seems unknowable, perhaps it's something just made up by people who want to put down others who dislike their favorite gear. Even if Fearfuls were perfectly flat (which they're not, of course, although they're very good cabs that make a lot of players happy), there are so many other elements that impact how a bassist sounds--choice of instrument, modding the electronics, use of active EQ and/or the passive tone knob, string choice, amp choice, use of the amp's EQ section, pedals, etc. The idea that everything before the cab is what a bassist "really sounds like" seems silly, honestly.

 

[johnpbass]

Jeez, 7 pages and not one "amp and cab doesn't matter because it's all in the fingers!" LOL!!