Why don't the big boys make good cabs?

[popgadget]

..... big companies have found a formula for designing cabs that are A) affordable and B) good sounding to a large portion of the bass community....................
In direct response to the OP, I think the big boys make plenty fine cabs that serve their customers well and keep their companies profitable. They are more than happy to leave the high dollar, uber-performing cabs to the boutique builders and the 2% of players of players that buy them.

To this point keep in mind that for the "big boys", more than 90% of their sales volume is in under $300 combos. That should give an idea how small the actual market for higher end cabs is.
I agree with Roger that they do make a wide range of cabs that serve their intended market, and that it would be difficult to tool up to mass produce a truly high end cab and sell it for a price that would return a profit given the overhead of the large organization and the minuscule market for such a cab.

 

[Eminor3rd]

I guess my post was mistaken as an advertisement for greenboy. Not so. This applies to all other things. Not just cabs. Just a comment on how you can be content with what you currently have when in fact you could be happier if you played a different bass, strings, amp etc.

I think Jimmy's point is that some (most?) people don't actually want their amplification to have no effect on their tone. We want our instrument speakers to give us tone (compression, equalization, punch, definition, overtones), but once we have that tone, we want our PA/headphones/home audio speakers to broadcast it without changing it. That's where high fidelity is desirable and that's why PA cabs have been so clean for year while instrument cabs have not.

 

[Bassmec]

[="Kmonk, post: 17585671, member: 230781"]I have always been happy with Ampeg and GK cabs. I tried a couple of used Eden cabs but everyone I looked at had at least one blown speaker. I have never had this problem with used Ampeg or GK.[/QUOTE]
I still have the big old triple port Eden 8x10LXT.
I think you will find that most of the blown up Eden cabs resulted from buying an expensive two by ten and expecting 4x10 performance at the very beginning of the downsizing rock and roll era.
Nobody has managed to damage my old Eden 8x10 and it works every day of its life in a busy rehearsal studio.
With basslayers that look like this.


Embattled for low frequency dynamics with even more demonically charged animals like this.

I do offer a compact three way active monitor system for the kemper bass modelling boys.

In the end, "There is no substitute for cubic inches".

 

[Jim C]

Here's another variable:
We play this reasonably large out door venue a few times a year that is an ice skating rink in the winter with a glass roof that has to be at least 35' off the ground.
The sound is typically great and I use the same rig as last time (Spector, Shuttlemax, GB Neo 2x12).
Same sound company as always although they didn't provide the staging this time.
Yesterday's stage was HUGE and made of thinner plywood; it was very flexible.
The low end was not nearly as tight on stage and I needed to drop some of the low and low mid EQ as a result.
The previous 4 shows did not have this issue and I can only attribute this to the staging as there was even more people than usual.

I think it takes multiple gigs in different rooms (conditions) with same cabinet to really understand the speaker performance as everything sounds good at home or in our dedicated rehearsal space.

 

[wisconsindead]

I think Jimmy's point is that some (most?) people don't actually want their amplification to have no effect on their tone. We want our instrument speakers to give us tone (compression, equalization, punch, definition, overtones), but once we have that tone, we want our PA/headphones/home audio speakers to broadcast it without changing it. That's where high fidelity is desirable and that's why PA cabs have been so clean for year while instrument cabs have not.

I know that was his point but he misunderstood what I was actually saying. It was a comment on how no one knows how good or great anything could be because they haven't experienced it all. We can be satisfied but in most cases we could be happier, we are just ignorant or ambivalent of improvements (improvements could be going from a Ken Smith to a Squire, I am not equating "quality" to "better"). This is the case for all of us. He incorrectly took the defensive position like I was trying to throw greenboy koolaid at people. Had the fearful mention in my signature not been there, his response likely would've been different.

 

[JimmyM]

I know that was his point but he misunderstood what I was actually saying. It was a comment on how no one knows how good or great anything could be because they haven't experienced it all. We can be satisfied but in most cases we could be happier, we are just ignorant or ambivalent of improvements (improvements could be going from a Ken Smith to a Squire, I am not equating "quality" to "better"). This is the case for all of us. He incorrectly took the defensive position like I was trying to throw greenboy koolaid at people. Had the fearful mention in my signature not been there, his response likely would've been different.

Nonsense. Greenboy is my bud, I see him on FB all the time and I speak to him on the phone at least once a year. I think his work on the fEarfuls is extremely important in the ongoing development of bass amplification, because he was the first to exploit the possibilities of those low-frequency neo woofers like the 3015LF in direct radiator bass cabs. I am really glad for Greenie that his cabs have had so much acceptance, and he was able to get a small business going from it, despite hating to build cabs But like I said before, 3-way bass rigs have been around since the 70's and they're really nothing that we haven't heard before, and neither are high end PA systems, which the 3-way bass rigs are derived from. Any bass player who has heard his or her bass come out of a good PA system knows what they'd be getting with a cab like a fEarful. Not a thing in the world wrong with it, either. But I've made my choice, and I made it for a reason, and that reason was not lack of exposure to it. I also went back to passive Fender P's and PJ's as my main basses despite owning a couple high-end neck-through-body active basses and playing a whole lot more of them at stores and occasional jams. I just like the sound of passive Fenders better.

So no, it had zip to do with the Greenboy koolaid. It had to do with the ridiculous assumption that the only reason we're not using Greenboy cabs and high end boutique basses is because we haven't been exposed to them and we don't know what we're missing. We're not "Boys In The Bubble."

 

[RoadRanger]

Not sure if Genzler Amplification is (yet?) considered one of the big boys but I heard their new Bass Array 12-3 yesterday at the NEGTG and it sounded fine next to a Greenboy :
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[Handyman]

Nonsense. Greenboy is my bud, I see him on FB all the time and I speak to him on the phone at least once a year. I think his work on the fEarfuls is extremely important in the ongoing development of bass amplification, because he was the first to exploit the possibilities of those low-frequency neo woofers like the 3015LF in direct radiator bass cabs. I am really glad for Greenie that his cabs have had so much acceptance, and he was able to get a small business going from it, despite hating to build cabs But like I said before, 3-way bass rigs have been around since the 70's and they're really nothing that we haven't heard before, and neither are high end PA systems, which the 3-way bass rigs are derived from. Any bass player who has heard his or her bass come out of a good PA system knows what they'd be getting with a cab like a fEarful.

Right, I think the real magic of the fEarful cabs is making use of the modern light and super high Xmax woofers along with some configuration of higher frequency drivers to hit the mid range frequencies that things like the 3015LF can't reach on the higher end.

And cabs loaded with these uber woofers don't NEED to sound like a PA system either, thankfully. I've been using one of Duke LeJune's Hathor 1855 cabs (18" sub woofer of doom + two 5" mid drivers) for almost a year. Aside from having very powerful low end extension, this thing is voiced quite a bit like more traditional tweeter-less bass guitar cabs. This thing literally has the displacement of an Ampeg fridge, but at 50lbs and in a pretty compact size.

Nothing is for everyone, but there are designs out there that get you the benefits of these high tech components with a sound that folks (like me) who are into more traditional sounding cabs can love.

 

[wisconsindead]

It had to do with the ridiculous assumption that the only reason we're not using Greenboy cabs and high end boutique basses is because we haven't been exposed to them and we don't know what we're missing.

I think many people out there don't realize what they have can actually be significantly improved upon. How can you know how poopy something is without knowing how much better it can be? Ignorance allows for being content. I'm not trying to say that typical bass players don't know anything about their gear but I'm sure if I played a nicer/more capable rig the satisfaction in my own rig would decrease.

Shown above is what you're referring to. Apparently its a ridiculous assumption that many people (you have clarified that you are not in this group) have not tried everything out and are therefore limited by their experience.

 

[Korladis]

I think the amp market is like the field of dreams; if they build it they will come. If the big box manufacturers released newer tech, and marketed like they do the traditional designs, people would buy it. There have been plenty of off the wall designs that have sold well, but at the time people were not ready. I think the market is ready for something new. Look at Warwick. That brand has launched like a rocket, and though they have traditional designs that are more affordable, the Helborg stuff is all biamp with cabs tuned to a specific purpose. Although the cabs are not engineered to the extent they could be, it at least shows that there is a market and a big box manufacturer can do it.

I've never seen any Helborg stuff in the wild.

 

[Korladis]

I know for sure Mesa had some weird 15/6/horn type cabs in the 80s. WAAAAY before the fearLESS/FULL stuff.

As others have mentioned though, way more people look for a 210/410/610/810/215/115 setup than a multi-size driver config. Most folks look to players they like for that kind of thing, and those are the cab types you tend to see (with some 12s thrown in here and there.)

Compounding that, is the fact that in that list of "big boy" manufacturers there really aren't many that are bass focused and aren't super focused on their own heritage. Mesa is more of a guitar amp company that also makes bass gear IMHO. Fender, Ampeg, et al are the same AND have a heritage to maintain (e.g. bassman style cabs, in the case of Fender, SVT style stuff in the case of Ampeg)

Eden is a weird case, they were bought and sold several times, and TBH since their WT550 and XST cabs were released I have not seen a ton of innovation, or even actual product refreshes or revamps, from them. They released some class D stuff, but I have not seen a lot of positive reviews about that gear. As a result I'd say their R&D budget is pretty minimal, so the chances of getting a multi-driver type cab from them is about nil.

I could keep going down the list, but again, I do not see a lot of "big" players in the bass amp/cab field that have a large enough R&D budget, and with strong enough desire to innovate for that to be a reality anytime soon.

Maybe Genzler will take care of that for us?

Did you just say that Ampeg is the same as Mesa, as in, a guitar amp company that also makes bass gear?

 

[Korladis]

Nobody's micing cabs anymore? That will certainly come as a surprise to all the current bassists in popular music who mic cabs.

Most shows I go to, the bass cab is mic'd.

Admittedly, most shows I go to are in the doom metal genre, which does have an element of amp worship to it, is fairly niche, and the bassists are usually approaching their sound in a way somewhere nearer to guitarists than average (using the amplifier and cab as part of the instrument rather than just as a personal monitor), but still, definitely a lot of people still mic'ing cabs.

 

[JimmyM]

Shown above is what you're referring to. Apparently its a ridiculous assumption that many people (you have clarified that you are not in this group) have not tried everything out and are therefore limited by their experience.

The only people limited by their experiences are kids who don't live near music stores and people who just plain don't care. It's easier than ever to find out about gear. If people want to find it, they can find it. If they're happy with what they have and don't want to go looking for "better," they will be just fine depending on how they play. It's not at all necessary to go seeking out new stuff in a perpetual state of gear wanderlust.

 

[Korladis]

Programmed...LOL! Well I sure am glad you're smart enough to see through the smokescreen so you can educate everyone

Nobody's programmed. The people have spoken and they've chosen hyped sounds. They like big bass and drum sounds, and they like bright cymbals and vocals. I always add bass and treble to my radios and stereos for that reason. Near-flat hi-fi response is available for anyone who wants it, but the reason that hyped sound sells has nothing to do with bring programmed...people simply like it better. I pretty much never play with a flat EQ. There's always at least a little bit of scoop in my favorite tones, and sometimes a pretty significant bass boost, too. Most of my favorite bass tones from others aren't flat response, either. Your claim assumes mass stupidity, but the market has had every opportunity to choose hi-fi flat response and by and large they choose hyped tones. They like good systems, but they want hyped tones coming out of them.

I rarely disagree with you, but I do here.

Everyone's programmed. Whether by the way their brain is wired from birth, or by influences growing up, or whatever. Why do I think the stuff that sounds good to me sounds good? I don't know. I just do. My brain is programmed to like the information it's getting from my ears when I hear bass tones (and guitar tones I like). Would that be the case if music and music gear had developed differently? I have no idea.

That said, I don't agree with the person you're responding to, either. Just because someone's brain is programmed doesn't mean that they're stupid. It's not stupid to like the sounds that you like. I don't like the sound of overdrive through tweeters without some high end roll-off somewhere before the tweeter in the signal chain. Would that be the case if that had been a more common sound in music in the last half century? I'm not sure, but I am sure that the way my brain is wired, for better or worse, that is a bad sound to me. Doesn't make me stupid, though.

 

[Korladis]

Nothing wrong about that, but it is a matter of perspective. I come from a world of enthusiast hifi, and can sympathise with your view.

My inner musician was dormant for years. When it woke up, I first picked up the electric guitar, and quickly learned that my hifi standards didn't apply. Where a hifi loudspeaker ideally should reproduce sound faithfully, the guitarists I met clearly had another view. For them, the guitar, strings, pickups, effects, amp and cab all served the same mission; to shape the sound they wanted.

After a while I started to see their point as a valid perspective and I think that carries over to bass, too. I have been to 2 outdoor concerts this last week (audience sizes of 41000 and 1600, respectively). In both the bassists used classic Ampeg 810 fridges on stage. These are professionals that can afford any equipment they want. I guess they get the sound they want when they include the sound coloration these cabs provide.

Exactly. For me, the amplifier and the cab are part of the instrument.

 

[Chef]

My COTIFWIW
(crappy opinion, take it for what it's worth)

The Big Boys -do- make good cabs.
The Fender Neo stuff. Pretty good.
Most Ampeg stuff. Pretty good.
GK stuff: I like it.
Hartke Stuff: Gigged it a lot.
Peavey: a lot of that works fine.
Mesa: Cool. Thanks.

Plenty of fine gear out there these days.

So.
Not sure what the hub-bub is.

 

[Korladis]

If you get into any more situations with the "bass is supposed to go thump" guys, turn em onto an isolations thread so they can hear what bass sounds like alone! Of all ive heardI think only the zeppelin and Jamerson stuff was close to "thump thump" but that probably worked since the guitars were more sparse and also not all up in the low end like so many rock guys nowadays.

IMO quite a bit of JPJ's bass sounds are very far from "thump thump."

I think Jimmy's point is that some (most?) people don't actually want their amplification to have no effect on their tone. We want our instrument speakers to give us tone (compression, equalization, punch, definition, overtones), but once we have that tone, we want our PA/headphones/home audio speakers to broadcast it without changing it. That's where high fidelity is desirable and that's why PA cabs have been so clean for year while instrument cabs have not.

Exactly.

I know that was his point but he misunderstood what I was actually saying. It was a comment on how no one knows how good or great anything could be because they haven't experienced it all. We can be satisfied but in most cases we could be happier, we are just ignorant or ambivalent of improvements (improvements could be going from a Ken Smith to a Squire, I am not equating "quality" to "better"). This is the case for all of us. He incorrectly took the defensive position like I was trying to throw greenboy koolaid at people. Had the fearful mention in my signature not been there, his response likely would've been different.

It's always struck me as a little morbid how casually people reference the mass suicide of nearly a thousand people, many of them children.

 

[wisconsindead]

It's always struck me as a little morbid how casually people reference the mass suicide of nearly a thousand people, many of them children.

 

[wisconsindead]

If people want to find it, they can find it. If they're happy with what they have and don't want to go looking for "better," they will be just fine depending on how they play.

Yup. Thats who I was referencing from the get go.

 

[JimmyM]

Right, I think the real magic of the fEarful cabs is making use of the modern light and super high Xmax woofers along with some configuration of higher frequency drivers to hit the mid range frequencies that things like the 3015LF can't reach on the higher end.

And cabs loaded with these uber woofers don't NEED to sound like a PA system either, thankfully. I've been using one of Duke LeJune's Hathor 1855 cabs (18" sub woofer of doom + two 5" mid drivers) for almost a year. Aside from having very powerful low end extension, this thing is voiced quite a bit like more traditional tweeter-less bass guitar cabs. This thing literally has the displacement of an Ampeg fridge, but at 50lbs and in a pretty compact size.

Nothing is for everyone, but there are designs out there that get you the benefits of these high tech components with a sound that folks (like me) who are into more traditional sounding cabs can love.

That is true. Duke does amazing work as well, and is right there on the cutting edge of the newer cab technology. But I like what I like That doesn't mean I don't like what they do...just that I'm fine with what I have and I'm not particularly inspired to change.