lol, I should have said "bet Jimmy was never so silly as to mic so close he got proximity boom and didn't know how to fix it"
Question.about proximity boom: is it independent of volume? I think it is but I want to be sure.
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Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?
- Thread starter mancefine
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Question.about proximity boom: is it independent of volume? I think it is but I want to be sure.
Don't really know. I'm not all that loud. I imagine there is a point where the volume comes into play, but not sure where that is.
Hmmm...reverse discrimination?This is kind of OT, but Jimmy what material do you do that you use distortion on? Seriously asking, as a guy who spent years (80's-90's) trying to get everything squeaky clean but is now looking to use some distortion.
One new band I may be joining is a 3 piece. I mentioned using some distortion on the bass to fill it in a little and add harmonics - the guitarist gave me this aghast lookI'm talking real tube breakup (Bassman 100T or Peavey VB-2) or at least Tech 21 (VT Bass, RBI, Para Driver) simulated tube breakup - not a $30 Behringer fuzz pedal. I think a lot of non-bass players would be surprised if they heard the isolated bass tracks from their favorite recordings.
I'm gonna try to use the DI out on the 100T, since it is post power tube and speaker emulated. I know I bitched about the master volume affecting the DI signal level, but I've now given in to the notion it's necessary to get the most tube character on the DI.
That said - I may pick up one of these AKG P2 mics you guys are on about too
An interesting side note - the guitarist I mentioned above prefers to go DI from his rack unit (Fractal Audio Axe-FX I think?). He uses a full range powered monitor speaker on stage. Actually gets pissed if they try to mic his "cab".
Let's see...I use a little bit of overdrive on a lot of stuff...Motown, Beatles, Freddy Cannon, songs like "Gimme Some Lovin'," pretty much anything that I suspect was recorded with a dirty sound. I also use fuzz on some Sly stuff, occasional punctuation of short riffs interjected in songs, Hollywood endings, things like that. I don't use it on upright, though, because of possible feedback issues.
The proximity effect that occurs when a dynamic mic is positioned too close to a source is indeed volume independent. It's a product of the way a cardioid-family microphone diaphragm functions. The only mics that I know of that do not suffer from this effect (as much) are electro-voice mics, some of which are specifically designed with proximity effect in mind - for this reason, they are often used by broadcasters who like to get right up on a microphone. The most well-known of these mics is the RE20 - an industry standard in broadcast and a secret weapon in many recording studios.
Btw, omnidirectional microphones do not suffer from proximity effect... Clever placement of these mics can yield really cool tones in both a recording and live music environment.
Next question, at what sort of range and counter range to other amps does mic bleed get out of control?
Eg 80ft wide stage, next nearest amp 20ft away, 10ft to the hihat, can you possibly set back to mic a 3way bass cab? I "think" that is a volume independent problem also, not sure. Raising volume increases bleed but mic gain is reduced, reducing bleed. The pickup pattern of your mic and relative loudness of the cab to the rest of the junk determining what works. Or not.
Eg 80ft wide stage, next nearest amp 20ft away, 10ft to the hihat, can you possibly set back to mic a 3way bass cab? I "think" that is a volume independent problem also, not sure. Raising volume increases bleed but mic gain is reduced, reducing bleed. The pickup pattern of your mic and relative loudness of the cab to the rest of the junk determining what works. Or not.
Man I thought I was happy with the REDDI...and I am it's a [DEL]really great[/DEL] totally classic tube DI. But when I think about the time, money and sweat I've spent finding amps and speakers that I really dig a lot I feel like I'm being sold short cutting that gear out of the equation. Inspired by this discussion I just bought a PR40 outta the TB classifieds and am gonna try leaving the DI at home. I know all too well it's not the path of least resistance but.....well, **** it! and **** anyone that wants to cross me over it! How's that for a mature, well reasoned argument?
Get Z clamp for it, makes you look like you might actually know what you're doing. So far I've got my way without too much drama. Suggest the friendly upfront approach eh!
A Z clamp is a very good idea thanks for that.
And yeah, I'm talkin' all tough here at my computer but I'm a long time union lighting tech/rigger/grip and I know all too well you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Probably the worst thing I'm gonna do if I get a hard time is not say "thank you" after the set.
And yeah, I'm talkin' all tough here at my computer but I'm a long time union lighting tech/rigger/grip and I know all too well you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Probably the worst thing I'm gonna do if I get a hard time is not say "thank you" after the set.
I'm okay with using a DI instead of a mic. Mic setups aren't perfect - even if you use something really good (way better than a 57or 58, or a Beta). The DI is easily controllable and very consistent.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
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- Feb 8, 2005
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Well, yeah you are. But the cold, hard reality is that most of the world doesn't care that much about bass tone per se. A really good and hip soundman might, but much like musicians who really listen, they are few and far between. Level, noise and non-boominess is pretty much all that the vast majority of people care about. Tone is an esoteric concept reserved for important instruments like guitar or anything else really.
Ironically, I'm actually relatively ok with a quality DI signal, but I do feel that all instruments (even bass!) sound better with a bit of the "air" quality that speakers provide. And I think that DIs in general yield an artificial quality to the tone of electric bass. Often times, in the context of a live mix (in particular) this detriment is outweighed by the benefit a clean DI signal provides. But again, it tends to be about getting the job done and over, not what sounds best.
How many classic albums have been done using unconventional, or "wrong" techniques either in unusual micing, or rooms or whatnot? Quite a few, actually. It's music, it's art, not rocket science. If it sounds good, it is...and who is to say what sounds good and does not?
In terms of popular music in the last half century many guitarists have been driving tubes, speakers and pedals in search of dirt. A lot of bassists have broken their backs and wallets trying to be clean. The game has changed quite a bit over the last few years, it's going to take some time before attitudes and practices catch-up. I try to make sure to provide a DI signal that I'm comfortable with, even if I prefer my rig's tone.
I remember havng this discussion with a keyboard player a few years back. He suggested I go out and get some Leslie speakers to play through, that way I'd be certain to get a pair of mics per cabinet at the very least.
Most good venues these days offer both a mic and a DI. I'm not suggesting that the FOH engineer is using both signals, but I'm happy to leave it in their hands to make the band sounds as good as possible. I just try to play well so the band can do their thing.
I remember havng this discussion with a keyboard player a few years back. He suggested I go out and get some Leslie speakers to play through, that way I'd be certain to get a pair of mics per cabinet at the very least.
Most good venues these days offer both a mic and a DI. I'm not suggesting that the FOH engineer is using both signals, but I'm happy to leave it in their hands to make the band sounds as good as possible. I just try to play well so the band can do their thing.
And for this reason, every guitarist should be using one too.
Actually, when I'm playing guitar, I do like going direct. But it has to be a direct box with a speaker simulator. A guitar amp is designed with the assumption that a low fi guitar speaker will shape the highs and lows. Skipping this part of the equation results in a horrible, unusable sound. That's why guitar speakers are miced.
But I have a couple if Palmer PDI 09 direct boxes that do the sound shaping job of the speaker and I'm very agreeable to use them and keep the open mics down to a minimum.
I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you're asking but I'll try to answer as best I can.
Mic bleed is in my opinion, actually a good thing, as it 'glues' sounds together or, makes a recording sound more cohesive. Of course, this is in the studio.
In a live context, too much bleed can lead to big time feedback problems on stage. You're right when you say that the "pickup pattern of your mic and relative loudness of the cab to the rest of the junk [on stage] determin[es] what works." If your mic is too far away from the source and is picking up too much monitor or another instrument and you crank the gain, you'll have problems. This is one of the reasons why folks tend to go right up against the grill of a cab, or almost right against the skin of a drum.
Proximity effect can be great, if used effectively though. It can lend a lot of weight to an otherwise anemic tone. I really like getting right up against the grill on fender guitar amps, for example. I find these types of amps often lack the bottom end that I want to hear.
On the OP topic, I'm sure it's been mentioned but I'll reiterate just in case: low frequencies tend toward a sinusoidal shape - a nice, slow curve with few spikes. This makes them great candidates to be run direct into any board, be it live or in the studio.
When I'm mixing a live band, I almost always take a DI on the bass. Depending on the size of the venue, the loudness of the band and the size of the bassists rig, I'll mix in as much of the direct sound as I need to, to fill out the sound on the room. I expect the same of any soundman that mixes my live sound. That's just the way it goes. As far as I'm concerned, the rigs that we build for ourselves - the tones we sculpt as bassists - are for the studio. I demand that my bass be mic'd when recording. Anything else is unacceptable.
- Feb 8, 2005
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The interesting thing the electric bass was designed the same way. The instrument was intended to be amplified through a speaker to be heard. The intended, regular, "real" sound of the electric bass is the sound it makes through an amp.
It's just that along the way, the ease of using a DI caught on (and commercial DI boxes started appearing) plus the general indifference to bass tone led to the idea that the "real" tone of the bass is straight from the jack, with none of that nasty coloring from the amp that was part of the design intent in the first place.
And sure, guys like Jamerson were being recorded without an amp, but through a makeshift DI but that was heavily colored by tubes yielding a fat, colored tone that was and is immensely popular...but not clean or flat by any stretch.
That (IMO) is what the crux of this topic is, and the thing I take issue with...the notion that the tone one gets from a bass straight to a DI is somehow the correct tone, the real tone, the way it actually is supposed to sound. It's not about distortion (though that may be a factor) or FX or anything like that. You may like that tone, you may find it works for you, etc. But it isn't the correct tone any more than a mic'ed amp is...if anything the mic'ed amp is more correct and true to the design intent. Again, you may or may not like that tone, but that is just a preference, it's not empirically better.
Uh oh... $h!t is about to get real in 3 2 1...
This is just how I do. My recordings seem to get a good response from listeners and I sure love my bass tones on tape. Nobody complains (at least to my face) about the live sound when I'm working, so I feel it's pretty safe to say that I'm doing a decent (dare I say good?) job.
Poop always gets real around here when folks share their opinions. I just shrug it off and let the trolls and flamers have their fun.
I'll point out that while Jamerson did record through the homebrew preamp in Motown Detroit, when they moved to LA, a lot of producers he worked with mic'ed his B-15. And he was on some very heavy records in LA, too.
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