Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[JimmyM]

Right you are, Marcus. I get accused of being a diva in these threads, but the truth is I am anything but a diva. If a soundman comes to me with a legit problem, I'm happy to try and work something out. Hell, I got a freaking $750 DI just to stop the arguments I was having over the mic! But when I do try to help out, generally what happens is I prove the old adage, "No good deed goes unpunished."

 

[JimmyM]

I see it at least once a day on here. And he's right that soundmen generally disregard bass to that level. at least the bad ones. Kind of like building a house from the roof on down, isn't it?

 

[FretNoMore]

Wow, this may be the most pitiful thing I've ever read on TB and yes, I'm being completely serious. I don't think I've every heard a professional say that their tone doesn't matter that much. I don't even know what to say about that.

I think you need to read that again because I believe that's not what Marcus said.

And I actually agree with him, a lot of people really don't care all that much about the bass tone as long as it's a decent tone that sits well in the mix. And how is anyone other than you supposed to know what tone you want anyway? The best a sound guy can do without your input is dial in some generic bass sound that isn't obviously wrong.

 

[MikeyThrottler]

This thread makes me extremely glad that soundmen are willing to mic my cab at pretty much every gig. If they didn't I'd probably have to drop the coin to get a REDDI as well.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Wow, this may be the most pitiful thing I've ever read on TB and yes, I'm being completely serious. I don't think I've every heard a professional say that their tone doesn't matter that much.

I think you need to read that again because I believe that's not what Marcus said.

Indeed, it isn't.

I said "To soundmen (and in their defense, most people), bass just isn't that important."

If I felt that way, I wouldn't bother posting. I'm the one arguing that bass tone is every bit as important as the tone of any other instrument, it just rarely gets treated that way. It's often something soundmen feel like they just have to deal with and get out of the way in the quickest and easiest manner possible.

 

[zachoff]

I haven't "had" to run direct for years. Tone is important and a sound guy should know that. A big part of tone comes from the speakers.

 

[monkeyfinger]

Totally agree. As a soundman my priorities are: vocals, drums, polyphonic instruments, monophonic instruments in that order. Of the monophonic instruments, I will do bass first because it is the most important of this group and the easiest to do. (Uprights that don't have a pickup and preamp system are a particular challenge.) Horns and strings are not too bad. A little comp and lpf usually get you going.

 

[jtroska]

I'm usually for DI but there was one gig I we did where the DI approach was a total fail and a mic would've been far better...

I was playing 6 string guitar for this one. The bassist had a SansAmp Bass Driver DI that was feeding the soundboard and his amp.

I don't know how he set his stuff, but the signal at the board (from the SansAmp) was godawful. I know because we multitrack recorded the show off the soundboard's channel inserts.

I guess the bassist set his amp controls to compensate because it sounded reasonable on stage. But the sound guy was only receiving half the equation. So when I mixed the live recording at home, I had to run his track through an amp simulator to salvage it.

And this is why sound engineers want the pre eq simple signal straight off the bass.

 

[JimmyM]

Don't blame the tools for the failings of that bass player. Clearly he over-compensated with the Sansamp and used the amp to bring it back.

 

[jtroska]

But if the model is the director for the photo shoot, and has a specific idea about how the photo should be filtered and exposed, and has picked her own clothes and lighting for the shoot-- then maybe the photographer should listen to her?

Well I don't know what kind of gigs we're all doing. If you've hired the guy yourself, absolutely have your employee do as you wish.

I'm playing clubs and festivals with their own sound crew. I've made suggestions but I don't tell them how to do their jobs.

Fortunately the sound crew that works the events in my town are ace and I love letting them work their magic. Of course, I've played shoddy clubs with bozo engineers too. Oh the stories... You wouldn't believe.

 

[Marcus Willett]

....this is why sound engineers want the pre eq simple signal straight off the bass.

Right, so he can have a clean neutral slate to craft a tone that works in the room, not what's coming off the amp...the same as they do with guitarists....um, waitaminnit....the same as they do with....well, nobody actually, this practice is reserved for bass and bass alone.

 

[jtroska]

Don't blame the tools for the failings of that bass player. Clearly he over-compensated with the Sansamp and used the amp to bring it back.

Im not. It was clearly a case of the bass player not understanding the signal flow.

 

[FretNoMore]

Right, so he can have a clean neutral slate to craft a tone that works in the room, not what's coming off the amp...the same as they do with guitarists....um, waitaminnit....the same as they do with....well, nobody actually, this practice is reserved for bass and bass alone.

To their defense I think that the bass is often the trickiest to get right in a room; you don't have the same problem, e.g. resonance and "boominess", with vocals, keyboards or guitars (unless the guitarist is one of those guys with ridiculous bottom end).

 

[JimmyM]

Is it any less tricky with a DI as opposed to a mic?

 

[FretNoMore]

I couldn't say, maybe it depends on where in the chain the DI is, and how bass heavy or "mid starved" the mic'ed sound is compared to the DI tone?

 

[JimmyM]

Speaking only for myself, I'd rather have a soundman tell me I need to back off the lows in my amp and use the mic than force me to plug into his Whirlwind Imp 2 that's been sitting at the bottom of a milk crate with a bunch of broken cords.

 

[jtroska]

Right, so he can have a clean neutral slate to craft a tone that works in the room, not what's coming off the amp...the same as they do with guitarists....um, waitaminnit....the same as they do with....well, nobody actually, this practice is reserved for bass and bass alone.

If guitarists had it their way, they'd have multiple ribbon mics on each speaker and tube mic preamps and the sound guys would fiddle with faders for hours to coax the magic mix from the multiple mics. Trust me, I read their forums too.

Everybody gets compromised for the sake of efficiency. The reason guitars are miced is because distortion effects sound absolutely horrid direct (unless you use a speaker simulator). If Im playing guitar, Im happy miced or direct with a speaker simulator.

Bass won't ever sound as disgusting as a distorted guitar running direct. It may not be YOUR ideal sound, but it should work. If Im playing bass, Im happy direct or miced.

Plus bass is the foundation. DI provides a punchy clear foundation. Guitar sits on top and can often benefit from the smoothing, less punchy sound of a mic.

 

[Pako]

Is it any less tricky with a DI as opposed to a mic?

Can be, sure. Stage resonance and other unknown variables that can inflict hard to pin point variables on a mic can be immediately remedied with a direct signal.

 

[JimmyM]

If guitarists had it their way, they'd have multiple ribbon mics on each speaker and tube mic preamps and the sound guys would fiddle with faders for hours to coax the magic mix from the multiple mics. Trust me, I read their forums too.

Everybody gets compromised for the sake of efficiency. The reason guitars are miced is because distortion effects sound absolutely horrid direct (unless you use a speaker simulator). If Im playing guitar, Im happy miced or direct with a speaker simulator.

Bass won't ever sound as disgusting as a distorted guitar running direct. It may not be YOUR ideal sound, but it should work. If Im playing bass, Im happy direct or miced.

Plus bass is the foundation. DI provides a punchy clear foundation. Guitar sits on top and can often benefit from the smoothing, less punchy sound of a mic.

I use a lot of distortion with my bass, too. I have an overdrive and a fuzz and I use them a lot.

 

[jtroska]

Is it any less tricky with a DI as opposed to a mic?

Yes. A mic is far less linear. A mic placed close to the source (As it would be live) is far from flat. It'll boost the lows and have a presence peak. Look at the signals in a frequency analyzer. The mic will have more peaks and valleys in the frequency response than the direct sound. It may be the perfect coloring. Or it may be coloring you dont want and cant undo.