Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[JimmyM]

Yes. A mic is far less linear. A mic placed close to the source (As it would be live) is far from flat. It'll boost the lows and have a presence peak. Look at the signals in a frequency analyzer. The mic will have more peaks and valleys in the frequency response than the direct sound. It may be the perfect coloring. Or it may be coloring you dont want and cant undo.

Red herrings. Not all of us are looking for no distortion and ruler flat sound. Not only that, but not even the best PA speakers are ruler flat. But if you do like a flat sound, it can easily be done with a mic on a cab. Set your rig to near flat and use an RE-20, which may not be ruler flat but is about as close to it as you'll get with a mic. And by "set your rig to near flat," I don't mean knobs at noon

 

[jtroska]

I use a lot of distortion with my bass, too. I have an overdrive and a fuzz and I use them a lot.

And this is where we open another can of worms. I asked about this on another thread myself.

Not 100% sure about it , honestly. I think if the fuzz sounds bad with your tweeters on, you might legitimately benefit from being miced or having a way to eq the highs down before they reach the soundboard.

My Darkglass B3K includes a high cut filter so I'm still ok direct. But if yours doesn't, I agree that micing may be the way to go.

 

[JimmyM]

Oh yeah, I definitely use electronic highs cutting with the REDDI.

 

[red_rhino]

This might sound a bit contrary, but I don't have a lot of faith in sound engineers to properly mic a bass cabinet, especially a full-range one. They tend to close mic the woofer and ignore the mid driver and tweeter, so I know that no matter what, my "sound" isn't what's going to FOH.

However, a lot of the sound guys I've worked with know the room better than I do, and I have no problem giving them a pre-eq DI and letting them make the adjustments needed for their venue. I may not always get the sound I'm after, but it's never bad.

Case-in-point; at the last place we played, I asked the sound guy if he wanted the DI pre or post EQ. He said "No one's ever offered that to me before." He seemed pretty pleased, he choose pre and had the bass dialed in for his room, and I sounded great on stage. A win-win.

-Alan

 

[St. Louis Scot]

I don't even take cabs to most of my gigs anymore in my main band. Just my rack with my SansAmp and Line 6 Wireless in it. Post-FX DI out to the board and let our paid soundguy handle it from there. We need a nearly dead silent stage for our act, so the guitarists also do the same thing (no cabs). Monitoring for the most part is IEMs, though we have tiny side fills also.
I'm in a pretty unique situation there, though.
For the most part, when I'm weekend warrioring it with generic cover bands or whatever, especially if it's a multi-band night, I just let the sound man do his thing. He knows the room, the gear and can make it work out front. I can't from on stage. If a DI out makes his life easier, by all means, go for it. If he wants a mic on my cab, OK, cool, but it doesn't add or subtract anything for me, IMO.

Ditto. What he said. Me too, pretty much verbatim.

 

[JimmyM]

This might sound a bit contrary, but I don't have a lot of faith in sound engineers to properly mic a bass cabinet, especially a full-range one. They tend to close mic the woofer and ignore the mid driver and tweeter, so I know that no matter what, my "sound" isn't what's going to FOH.

Bassists with 2 and 3 way cabs usually don't care about micing. But your point is valid...that's why I ended up taking the guesswork out of micing for them when I was micing. I know how to place it

 

[fokof]

So , you guys think that there in no EQing on a miked guitard amp or on a drum , a vocal or a keyboard ?

You think that because your amp is miked , what you hear on stage from your bass monitor is gonna be reproduced exactly as you hear it ?

 

[monkeyfinger]

Yeah, this is the fallacy of mic'ing. Bottom line is, IMO, get a good DI that emulates the sound you hear.

 

[Marcus Willett]

...A mic placed close to the source (As it would be live) is far from flat...It may be the perfect coloring. Or it may be coloring you dont want and cant undo.

But see, there it is again. The presumption that a flat sound is the correct tone. The assumption that the resultant tone from a DI is by definition superior. Maybe the bass sounds like crap, unless it's being colored by external items. Maybe you plain and simply don't like the tone of a bass straight to DI.

Why is it necessarily the case that the tone from a DI is better? What is so special about THAT tone? It will almost always have more absolute low end than a mic, likelier to be boomy. It will almost always have less midrange complexity than a cabinet. Why is it the most popular bass rigs of all time color the sound....a LOT? Flat is almost never a desired goal for electric instruments. Incalculable time and effort has been put forth for decades to sculpt and create tones for electric instruments, and color them.

But all of this is bad when it comes to bass. It must be pure and uncolored, or it's a hassle. Why is it only with bass that a soundman is granted license to create your tone rather than reproduce it?

Even with acoustic bass, if a player insisted on being mic'ed, it's acceptable. After all, that's his tone, his signature. Somehow, it'll be dealt with, though it may not be easy. There will be all the issues of micing and low end, etc. But it can be dealt with.

Do the exact same thing with electronics or speakers with an electric bass, and it's suddenly bad. It won't work in the house, it's too boomy, it doesn't sound the same out front, etc...and of course this is true for acoustic bass as well. But if a soundman has no choice, he will be forced to make it work, and (the good ones) will do the best to reproduce the tone the player has worked so hard to create.

Somehow with electric, your efforts are to be undone and your results are automatically detrimental. None of the arguments presented are unique to bass (though it is admittedly a tough nut to crack), yet it is only this instrument that the standard practice is to undo any alteration at all to the signal from the jack.

Assuming you subscribe to this philosophy, why isn't a soundman allowed to tell you where to put your pickup blend? Or plucking hand? Or tone knob? Or what kind of strings to use?

Of course that seems silly, and it is. But each of those would present the same type of problems and issues that going straight to DI I supposed to address. Yet in spite of this fact, you will never hear a soundman bring any of those up. Why not?

Somehow, at the jack...THAT is where the sound is done, like it's an acoustic instrument or something.

But it isn't, and shouldn't be treated as such.

 

[Marcus Willett]

You think that because your amp is miked , what you hear on stage from your bass monitor is gonna be reproduced exactly as you hear it ?

Of course not, did I miss the part where someone said that?

 

[lfmn16]

I think you need to read that again because I believe that's not what Marcus said.

And I actually agree with him, a lot of people really don't care all that much about the bass tone as long as it's a decent tone that sits well in the mix. And how is anyone other than you supposed to know what tone you want anyway? The best a sound guy can do without your input is dial in some generic bass sound that isn't obviously wrong.

Misread the context so I'm deleting my post. Sorry guys.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Yes. A mic is far less linear. A mic placed close to the source (As it would be live) is far from flat. It'll boost the lows and have a presence peak. Look at the signals in a frequency analyzer. The mic will have more peaks and valleys in the frequency response than the direct sound. It may be the perfect coloring. Or it may be coloring you dont want and cant undo.

Nobody complains about my akgp2 bring peaky or boomy, I put it 1" off the grill directly at the cone. It has a small rise in response above 5k.

I bet Jimmy never stuffed his pr40 so close it boomed from proximity either.

Neither of us play silly loud. I don't know if my 1" is enough to get stage bleed at stupid loud.

From your previous post:
Resonance? How does a mic on a bass cab cause resonance? You mean if the floor is bouncing the bass mic stand?

 

[Pako]

I use a lot of distortion with my bass, too. I have an overdrive and a fuzz and I use them a lot.

And a perfect reason to require a mic for the gig, especially if your overdrive is from the amp/cab combination.

The right tool for the job.

For me, I guess it would depend on the gig, FOH support, and if there was ample setup time allowed. Also depends on the backline if you're using it. If the gear is unfamiliar, I would almost trust the DI over being mic'd just because I know how my basses sound direct and can trust their tone regardless of what I'm hearing on the stage.

 

[JimmyM]

So , you guys think that there in no EQing on a miked guitard amp or on a drum , a vocal or a keyboard ?

You think that because your amp is miked , what you hear on stage from your bass monitor is gonna be reproduced exactly as you hear it ?

Bullcrap! I don't know how many times you're going to make me call "bullcrap" whenever you keep repeating this fallacy, but call "bullcrap" I will. To get the sound that comes out of my amp in the PA, all I ever had to say to a soundman is, "If you try to make it sound like what comes out of my amp, you will be in business and have a great mix." And you know what? Unless the soundman decided not to make it sound like what came out of my amp, it sounded like what came out of my amp. Can't tell you how many times I couldn't tell where my amp ended and the PA began.

 

[JimmyM]

I bet Jimmy never stuffed his pr40 so close it boomed from proximity either.

I actually did for the first gig I had with it. After that, all I had to do was back off the grill slightly. Prox boom fixed.

 

[fokof]

Of course not, did I miss the part where someone said that?

Yes , you say that your amp "IS" part of your tone.



I say whatever source coming from whatever speaker (here we're talking bass/ bass monitors but it can be Guitar/Guitar amp or sax or drum ) no matter how you are "sound re-enforcing" it , it's not gonna sound the same coming out of a PA.

Go beside your sax player , how does he sound ?
Put a 6000$ mike on him , is it gonna sound exactly as that ?
Of course not

Wanna talk Grand piano ?

"Your tone" that you hear at your playing position is not gonna sound the same. That is Miked or DIed.
So stop that cra* about soundman nor respecting it.

It is an Utopia from the get go.

 

[JimmyM]

Once again, BULLCRAP!

 

[fokof]

…. I promised myself not to answer to those thread anymore …… Dang

I stop here

 

[Marcus Willett]

Yes , you say that your amp "IS" part of your tone.

You are intentionally being difficult and you know it. It is your job as soundman to reproduce the sounds on stage, as best you can and working within the limitations imposed by the room. OF COURSE you are going to have to make adjustments. But that's taking a completed tone and modifying it AFTER it exists, not creating it before. You're obviously an intelligent fellow, why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

It is NOT your job to produce a sound from scratch, which is what you seem to think is your prerogative vis-a-vis bass. I know YOUR sound is at your jack, you've made that very clear on numerous occasions. Maybe someone else's sound is completed somewhere else. What makes you right and them wrong? Why do you assume YOUR sound works in the room and theirs doesn't?

 

[tbirdsp]

I use a lot of distortion with my bass, too. I have an overdrive and a fuzz and I use them a lot.

This is kind of OT, but Jimmy what material do you do that you use distortion on? Seriously asking, as a guy who spent years (80's-90's) trying to get everything squeaky clean but is now looking to use some distortion.

One new band I may be joining is a 3 piece. I mentioned using some distortion on the bass to fill it in a little and add harmonics - the guitarist gave me this aghast look I'm talking real tube breakup (Bassman 100T or Peavey VB-2) or at least Tech 21 (VT Bass, RBI, Para Driver) simulated tube breakup - not a $30 Behringer fuzz pedal. I think a lot of non-bass players would be surprised if they heard the isolated bass tracks from their favorite recordings.

I'm gonna try to use the DI out on the 100T, since it is post power tube and speaker emulated. I know I bitched about the master volume affecting the DI signal level, but I've now given in to the notion it's necessary to get the most tube character on the DI.

That said - I may pick up one of these AKG P2 mics you guys are on about too

An interesting side note - the guitarist I mentioned above prefers to go DI from his rack unit (Fractal Audio Axe-FX I think?). He uses a full range powered monitor speaker on stage. Actually gets pissed if they try to mic his "cab".