Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[stiles72]

Another option is to just turn your rig up to the point you're balanced with or overpowering the mains. I've been running a 100 watt V4BH or a B-100R, and get asked to turn down quite often- so it doesn't take a 1,000 watt mega amp to compete. Don't want to mic me? That's fine... let me just turn that master volume up a notch...

 

[Korladis]

Yeah, I usually use an RE-20, not a 421, for my cab. Though I don't use an 810 either (usually, though I have played through them on occasion when everyone was using the same bass cab).

 

[bigchiefbc]

Have you ever wondered what the freq resp of you mic'd cabinet looks like?

I bought some SVT8x10 cabinet impulses for a recording project. 564 impulses with an assortment of microphones, distances and sampling rates. Anyway, here is one example, the response plot for the SVT 8x10 cab captured with an MD421 at 6" from the cone center.

I'm not surprised at the variation. There are a lot of reflections in the recording environment which could be better or worse on stage.

Edit: This was done with Matlab processing the impulse response (wav file).

A bit of that low-end roll-off is due to the MD421 of course

http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Sennheiser/MD-421

The MD421 starts rolling off around 80 Hz and is down about 8-9 dBs by 40 Hz

 

[xk49w]

Got an impulse with an RE-20? I almost expect that out of a 421. Good mic, but I do notice it's brighter than most.

Yes, there is an RE20 included.

What dya want for $9?

 

[JimmyM]

Sheesh! Almost identical to the 421 but with an even bigger mid dip. Yeah, I have to think it was the $9 freq analyzer

 

[Geri O]

Sheesh! Almost identical to the 421 but with an even bigger mid dip. Yeah, I have to think it was the $9 freq analyzer

That mid dip (usually called a null for this purpose) is probably more from multiple arrivals of the sound at the mic at that frequency. I'm kinda surprised to see that much of a null with the mic being that close, but then again, I've never measured a bass cabinet, nor a cabinet with multiple identical drivers. I could tell more if I knew what the frequency was at the null. Or maybe not...(Edit: I'm going on a limb and thinking that 10/1 is 10hZ, 10/2 is 100hZ, and so on. If that's the case, then it looks like the big null is centered around 1.4kHz, which makes sense

The bigger dip with the RE20 (BTW, one of my favorite mics ever? Probably because of a very slight difference in mic placement. No, actually, a slight difference in magnitude (level), sorry. Pretty much the same frequency, which rules out differing placement.

Like you said, for $9, hey, you are actually getting a quite decent measurement for your money. I guess you are looking at the mic's response more so than the cabinet's response?

Cool stuff, but after all the measuring of PAs I've done over the years, I'll wait a while before I attempt such measurements. But carry on and have fun!

Geri O

 

[yonoid_man_man]

That's why you get a nice preamp to make them run sound through. That way, even if it's just direct, you can still make it sound the way you want it to.

 

[Geri O]

So, no fundamental to speak of below G (-10dB at 50Hz), huge midrange dip (-10dB over most of range), nasty spike at 3kHz (hear that presence peak!), no treble above 6kHz -- and this is 6" in front of the dustcap, the off-axis response where you listen and by the time all the drivers have interfered with each other will be a lot more uneven than this,

Lots of mid and upper bass and not much else -- is this *really* the kind of "cabinet sound" that people like?

(not me, it's the kind of muddy boomy bass sound I hate, but that's just my opinion)

This is using an instrument cardioid-pattern microphone for the measurement. It is NOT the appropriate microphone to be using to check the frequency response of a speaker cabinet. You can't judge the response of the DUT (device under test) with this measurement. The main null is between 1.4kHz and 1.7kHz. This is pretty much because of the multiple arrivals of the signal (or interference, as you say). Having said this, I understand totally why and what the OP was doing when he made these measurements. I'm just saying don't be too harsh on the DUT because of the plots you are looking at.

I use (or used to use) a $500 Earthworks measurement mic for measurements like that. Omnidirectional, ruler-flat response. You can use a $100 Behringer measurement mic to use if you want to pursue measurements like this and with reasonable results. I know pro audio guys that leave the expensive mics at home and tour with the cheaper mics.

I have never pursued the measurements of instrument speakers (guitar amps, bass amps, etc.), so I wouldn't know what to look for, except maybe to look for glaring problems.

Just to clarify...

Geri O

 

[Zonked]

Being the bassist and sound guy for my band, I understand that the tone I like to hear from my rig on stage may not necessarily work from the audience perspective or for the overall mix, when running through a sound system. Out front my preferred stage tone my sound thin, boomy or undefined. As a sound guy, I may have to tweak instruments on the desk to make them work for the mix as a whole.

As long as my tone works for me on stage and is within a nice sized working range, I am happy to let the sound guy do his job. I would rather focus on the energy and emotion of the song, because there is no way in hell I can tell if "my tone" or level is working in the audience mix when I am on stage in the heat of battle.

When I do sound for my band, I don't let the guitarist impose his "stage tone" on the mix, if it is not working for the mix. He knows better now and knows that any tweaking I may have to do is to make the WHOLE band sound better.

 

[3wavylines]

Who says advice from the sound engineer should stop at the jack?

"No! No! Not up by the neck! Play over the pickup!"

"I generally tell people this room calls for a pick."

"Please use one pickup or the other - NOT BOTH."

"I told you BOOMERS!"

"JEEZ! STAY AWAY FROM THE THIRD!!"

...

The sound engineer lifts the house P-Bass out of a milk crate - "Here, take this bass. Hold it like this. Only play where those pieces of tape are. Good! Just like that!"

 

[RoadRanger]

Its hard to find a competent sound guy without paying him more than the band makes. We never have problems finding skilled and pleasant musicians.

Hate to tell yous guys but the going rate for a competent everyday FOH guy is $25/hr to him - if you are paying less than that you are getting what you are paying for. And that doesn't include the equipment rental or any sound company markup on the hourly rate.

 

[Jack]

True.........

Thanks for explaining! I wasn't explicitly singling you out, you just happened to be the most recent post to espouse that particular view point. It does make sense I suppose, I was just assuming that most people had a decent sound dialed in using their rig, you're right however that many people don't, and a 'least ruined' signal would most likely be found straight from the bass. With that being said, if the bass player is happy with the sound of their rig (even if it's crap) then maybe they should be allowed to pass that sound on to the audience.

The crux of this issue seems to be that often soundmen have to split their priorities. One the one hand, they're there to do what the band wants. Secondly, they often don't work for the band but are actually employed by the venue, in which case they have to do what the venue wants. Finally, some sound engineers (esp freelance) want to make the band sound good, or at least their version of it, either for personal pride or to ensure repeat work.

We do our own sound for most of the time, so this isn't much of an issue for me. Having said that, I like a little tubey squish and growl in my sound, so I've made sure that I can get that from my pedalboard. I will NOT, under any circumstances, take a pre-pedalboard feed to the PA, because then what would the board be for? The last thing on my board is a Type 85 so soundmen are either welcome to that or they can use their own box. I'm also fine with a mic, or finally I can sometimes be persuaded to use a pre-eq send from my head. I'm easy going as long as you don't ask for a post-eq send.

There is a bit of onus on us as bass players to be easy to get along with. We at Talkbass represent (for lack of a better word) the elite of bass players. We care enough to be on a bass forum talking about this stuff. That doesn't mean we know what we're talking about or even that we're good players (I'm certainly not!) but we do care. It must be really frustrating to be a soundman and having to deal with the 99% of bass players who aren't on TB, and are ignorant or apathetic. If you need a mic send to the PA because you just do, then buy a damned mic and show up with it. I like a nice DI feed after my pedal board so I have a Countryman there, it's just good sense.

 

[BurningSkies]

Hate to tell yous guys but the going rate for a competent everyday FOH guy is $25/hr to him - if you are paying less than that you are getting what you are paying for. And that doesn't include the equipment rental or any sound company markup on the hourly rate.

The 'going rate' depends upon the town.

 

[Korladis]

Who says advice from the sound engineer should stop at the jack?

"No! No! Not up by the neck! Play over the pickup!"

"I generally tell people this room calls for a pick."

"Please use one pickup or the other - NOT BOTH."

"I told you BOOMERS!"

"JEEZ! STAY AWAY FROM THE THIRD!!"

...

The sound engineer lifts the house P-Bass out of a milk crate - "Here, take this bass. Hold it like this. Only play where those pieces of tape are. Good! Just like that!"

I'd probably get a closer sound playing a different bass through my amp than I do playing my bass through a different rig, actually. I regard my amp as half my instrument. I don't mean that figuratively. Dude may as well be telling me to use a different bass.

 

[ThisBass]

I regard my fashion how to play by appro 70% and 25% for the instrument, and little remnant of 5% for the gear. I don't worry about to plug my bass guitar elsewhere, into my own SVT gear or someone else gear or any DI at bass giutar out-plug sent into FOH, but yet get exactly that "accurate" personal sound that makes me unmatched.

IMO it is a good idea to spend some work into the bass guitar instrument itself, I'm sure a carefully crafted performance of any instrument may replace tons of gear.

 

[BurningSkies]

I'd probably get a closer sound playing a different bass through my amp than I do playing my bass through a different rig, actually. I regard my amp as half my instrument. I don't mean that figuratively. Dude may as well be telling me to use a different bass.

The heart & soul of my sound is ME. I sound like me no matter what I use. But I have a stunning bass that sounds amazing. I've combined that with a preamp that is also an amazing tone generator, which I couple with some speakers that can reproduce that sound (quiet or loud) with what is very close to as 'flat' as you can get. Many people also get additional tone from their speakers. Its not just to my benefit, but the other players in my band. They not only enjoy it but find it inspirational. I have a drummer who can start giggling with giddiness just for the love of bass. The others are just as positive about things.

 

[Korladis]

The heart & soul of my sound is ME. I sound like me no matter what I use. But I have a stunning bass that sounds amazing. I've combined that with a preamp that is also an amazing tone generator, which I couple with some speakers that can reproduce that sound (quiet or loud) with what is very close to as 'flat' as you can get. Many people also get additional tone from their speakers. Its not just to my benefit, but the other players in my band. They not only enjoy it but find it inspirational. I have a drummer who can start giggling with giddiness just for the love of bass. The others are just as positive about things.

Oh, it still sounds like it's me playing, no matter what rig I play, or what bass I play. Though, of course never exactly the same.

All I was saying was that changing my rig would probably make a bigger difference in the end product sound than changing my bass would.

 

[squeezer]

Well, apparently. And that's kinda the thing. It's just human nature (this is not a dig at you per se) to feel that what seems right to you is the only reasonable conclusion any person could draw. And a soundman might (being human) receive a signal colored like that and conclude that it's just wrong and needs to be fixed...because obviously no reasonable person would want that. I mean, it sounds BAD.

Yeah, it does...to you. But that's the thing. If that's his tone, that's his tone. It is not your call to second guess and change that. You may think its a bad idea, maybe lots of folks agree, maybe you try to get him out there to make your case. And you might persuade him, or maybe not.

But it's his tone. It. Is. Not. Your. Call.

If his tone is muddy, then that's his tone. If his tone is thin, thats his tone. Your "reputation" is not justification for changing hs tone any more than you insisting the singer sing in a different key because he sounds bad out front, and your reputation might be injured by hm sounding bad in that key.

Despite what you may think, I'm happy to listen to suggestions from a soundman who knows what he is doing and wants to work together to make things sound great. But a player's tone is his tone. And if he needs X to get his tone, then it is not his tone without X. Period.

You can suggest, and maybe you really do have a better approach. But it is not your call, as much as you like to think it is.

You obviously didn't bother to read the bit said that "my personal preference, other opinions may differ"...

 

[Marcus Willett]

You obviously didn't bother to read the bit said that "my personal preference, other opinions may differ"...

The response is to the totality of your statements thusfar, the quote was only used as a starting point. YOU read the "this is not a dig at you per se" part, right?

Think of "you" as the ubiquitous "you", your statements and others just serving as a general position.

 

[squeezer]

The response is to the totality of your statements thusfar, the quote was only used as a starting point. YOU read the "this is not a dig at you per se" part, right?

The totality of my statements so far is pretty much that different setups and sounds work for different people, some setups make it much easier to get the "right" sound at FOH than others, just because you sound good on-stage doesn't mean you sound good out front, micing up a cabinet needs to be done right, musicians and soundmen should work together to get the best sound, the soundman should listen to the onstage sound to see what the band wants to sound like, it helps if musicians understand how PA and mixing works, and that blaming "the other guy" all the time can be counter-productive.

Anyone honestly disagree with any of this?

People who only take one part of a post out of context and ignore the caveats really get on my wick -- saying "this is the only way to do it" or "this is the way you should sound" or "all cabinets sound crap and DI is the only good way" (or vice versa) would be stupid, which is why I didn't do it...

There are always other points of view, but unfortunately there are also always people who don't want to see them, or talk at great length about things they actually don't have a clue about or any real experience with. Such is life on the Internet :-(