Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[punkjazzben]

What is THIS THREAD even about anymore? Why ARE you talking about cheese and COMPLAINING about soundGUYS? Hasn't this topic BEEN done to death BEFORE and isn't there a sticky somewhere about THIS?

And can somebody please FIX that guy's caps LOCK key? Thank YOU!

 

[Luckydog]

Our band owns a decent PA system, large enough for fairs and festivals, and we hire someone to run it. We've done this for many years. Only on a very few gigs do we enjoy the luxury of using a venue's system. In our situations, the sound guy works for us, and we make that clear from the beginning. Despite that, we have had to fire four self-titled "sound engineers" in less than 2 years, for a variety of reasons, largely due to their lack of technical skills, but also very much for their overbearing know-it-all attitudes. Its hard to find a competent sound guy without paying him more than the band makes. We never have problems finding skilled and pleasant musicians. What is it about the "sound guy" world that perpetuates both their incompetence and arrogance? Maybe its just in our part of the world

 

[BurningSkies]

Yeah, I know some sound companies feel like the band is window dressing for their sound gear

Ummm....for the first 20 years of rock music give or take people went to see the band even if they couldn't hear a single note. There are whole Beatles tours that are documented to be like that, so I'm thinking that people still go to see THE BAND.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I'd say it would do most players good to invest in gear for the FOH and get a good pair of in-ear monitors. This will be a better investment that buying high end boutique amps and cabs but this is only my opinion.

Everyone's situation is different, but I personally like to think of gear investments in the long-term and try to get things that are going to be useable in multiple situations. Case in point, my last band often had FOH support. For years, until a lot of the big rooms dried up, we only played gigs that had FOH support, either as in-house or by subcontracting production companies. As long as I had a nice bass, I could have really played through any cabinet and it wouldn't have mattered much with regard to the end produce. However, I decided to pick up some Bergantino cabinets, and I'm glad I did. My current project has me playing all types of gigs, from acoustic stuff with the drummer playing a cajon box and I'm DIed to some self-powered speakers to big stages opening for nationals with state of the art line array systems. Somewhere in between those types of gigs, I play a lot of gigs where I don't have PA support at all, and for those, I'm glad I invested in quality speaker boxes and amps before coming to this project.

With that said, I do agree with your other points, particularly with doing things that are ultimately beneficial for the FOH mix. Some players concentrate way too much on the stage mix, IMHO. Crystal clear sound on stage where everything is evenly balanced and sounds like a well-mixed CD is ideal and nice when it happens, but sometimes that's just not reality, particularly if everyone isn't using IEMs. Some players can turn into huge prima-donnas about it and it can make the gig a real bummer.

 

[JimmyM]

I kind of like the bleed you get from amps and live mics. I'm not a big fan of everything being super isolated with drummers playing behind screens or using electronic drums. And quite honestly, bleed has never once been a factor at my gigs that ruined our sound. However, I have heard bands with no amps sound kind of lifeless. Clean and pristine, but no balls. That said, Dennis DeYoung had an ampless stage when I saw him at Epcot and he sounded pretty good.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I kind of like the bleed you get from amps and live mics. I'm not a big fan of everything being super isolated with drummers playing behind screens or using electronic drums. And quite honestly, bleed has never once been a factor at my gigs that ruined our sound.

+1

As long as a little bleed into mics isn't causing any feedback or major phasing issues, I liken it to using overhead mics on a drum kit to "bring it all together." It drives some people crazy, but it's actually pretty low on the hierarchy of things to be worrying about in a live mix.

Shields on drums suck, though!

 

[modulusman]

The only ones whining here are a bunch of bassists, most of whom don't own, haven't trained on, and wouldn't know where to begin setting up a PA system. They simply bought a bass rig and suddenly think they are experts on room/FOH sound and physics. How's that for some sharp cheese?

Agreed. Well they did set up and run a POS powered mixer speaker on a stick PA one time that had 3 vocal mics plugged into it. So that makes them soundmen.

 

[JimmyM]

Sounded damn good, too!

 

[Jack]

Let me give you some context. "Your sound" coming through relatviely small boxes will sound COMPLETELY different coming through huge (by comparison) subs. Also, "your sound" will bounce throughout the the room differently than it does a stage or practice room. It may sound like pooh through the FOH PA.

This is something that's never made sense to me. If something sounds good coming from a cab then it sounds good. I'm well aware no PA is truly transparent but surely it would put the same colour on a dry bass signal too,

 

[lfmn16]

Just as not all soundmen are knob twisting numb nutz, some of us have learned a few things about sound over the 20 - 40 years we've been playing, sometimes from good soundmen. So the last two soundmen trying to answer every post by ratcheting up the hyperbole might want to take a deep breath and calm down. Being rude and condescending is not the same as making an case for your point of view.

Also, please try to remember that this is a forum for BASS players, not soundmen and as such will tend to reflect OUR point of view. If you can't handle that, you may want to consider going to a soundman forum where you can find a point of view more to your liking.

 

[BurningSkies]

I kind of like the bleed you get from amps and live mics. I'm not a big fan of everything being super isolated with drummers playing behind screens or using electronic drums. And quite honestly, bleed has never once been a factor at my gigs that ruined our sound. However, I have heard bands with no amps sound kind of lifeless. Clean and pristine, but no balls. That said, Dennis DeYoung had an ampless stage when I saw him at Epcot and he sounded pretty good.

This. I also don't believe the end goal of live sound is to make it sound like a CD. Live music is a whole different thing, and I don't think that complete isolation is all that wonderful. I sort of think about how CSN did their best sounding vocal work with three voices and a single mic...they believed that there's some magic in the blending of their voices in air rather than with 3 mics then mixed.

 

[BurningSkies]

Just as not all soundmen are knob twisting numb nutz, some of us have learned a few things about sound over the 20 - 40 years we've been playing, sometimes from good soundmen. So the last two soundmen trying to answer every post by ratcheting up the hyperbole might want to take a deep breath and calm down. Being rude and condescending is not the same as making an case for your point of view.

Also, please try to remember that this is a forum for BASS players, not soundmen and as such will tend to reflect OUR point of view. If you can't handle that, you may want to consider going to a soundman forum where you can find a point of view more to your liking.

I agree. I don't understand how anyone that's been playing live for a few decades doesn't understand what a soundman is doing and how rooms, front end PA and mixing works... Yes, many of us have some insight in working sound ourselves, both live and in the studio. But the guys who seem to think that the bulk of bassists are just standing there ignorantly thumping while the soundman is working his magical alchemy to turn lead into gold are just ridiculous.

 

[Geri O]

Just as not all soundmen are knob twisting numb nutz, some of us have learned a few things about sound over the 20 - 40 years we've been playing, sometimes from good soundmen. So the last two soundmen trying to answer every post by ratcheting up the hyperbole might want to take a deep breath and calm down. Being rude and condescending is not the same as making an case for your point of view.

Also, please try to remember that this is a forum for BASS players, not soundmen and as such will tend to reflect OUR point of view. If you can't handle that, you may want to consider going to a soundman forum where you can find a point of view more to your liking.

What you don't realize (and I don't know which 2 posters you speak of) is how many bassists here are also professional sound guys, like myself. I played professionally for 20 years then worked in the pro sound business for another 20 years. I've been to several manufacturers' training classes an seminars to set up, rig, align, and maintain professional sound systems for national acts of all kinds. And in a very short time, I've come to realize that there are many, many people here with the same or very similar pedigrees. As for me, I've almost all but stopped the pro sound career and gone back to playing bass (I still work for the same company, but I'm a shop rat/logistics guy now).

So that's where my point of view comes from. All that experience doesn't at all qualify me or anyone else to dictate what works for each individual player here. But I am dismayed at the lack of middle ground or flexibility displayed by pretty much all sides of this issue.

My position is that, when I'm playing, I like as few electronics as possible in the way of the bass on its way to the PA speakers. That's why I've owned a Countryman DI for 35 years, until 3 years ago, when I bought a Radial JDI Jensen-equipped DI. And in all these years, I've never had a sound guy refuse to use my DIs, opting for their own preference (except some recording dates where an Avalon was used). I've never felt the need for FX on the bass. That's just me, that's what works for me, I"m not about to put down players that use various FX units.

When I'm a sound guy, yes, I ask what the bassists' preference is and in all these years, I can count on one hand the players that have a specific request on how their signal is taken. When that's case, I'll use one of our Radial JDIs and if time and inputs allow, I"ll use a Shure Beta 52 mic on the cabinet. Then I listen to both and, again, if left to my own, I'll use one or the other, or both, especially if the player has a pedalboard or other effects. As for the DI, I place it at the last cable going to the amp so I can catch whatever FX are being used. One thing I've discovered is that when effects are used, they seem to sound better and blend better when a mic is used on the cabinet. Overdrive sounds and chorus-y sounds seem kinda harsh to my ear when used directly to the PA.

So there's my take on this topic that I've resisted putting out there until now. Your shot across the bow to sound guys was close to home since there are so many players here that do both. So go easy on the generalizations while you are issuing your edicts about who should or should not participate here.

Geri O

 

[EZ9R]

Jeff Berlin

 

[vbchaos]

I do not understand why this is so much of an issue for so many people.
I had the chance to work with some professionals 3 times, and it was a blessing to see someone actually read our rider, understand it and come to us saying "OK let's find out how we can get the best sound out of it". What I do not understand is how some people (on both sides) can be so arrogant to determine what's best without even asking.
The soundman would ask what we use, if we might have a certain idea or experience with gear or usage and we find a way to get the best out of it. He does not know my rig, so he is willing to learn it. I do not know his desk, FXs, Amps, PA or the room, so how can I possibly be so arrogant to tell him what to do?

in my experience, behaviour like that comes back to you - again, this holds for both sides. Being the musician or the FOH engineer, you have a job to do and you can do it best when you work together as a team. It might be because I am no professional, but I love to work in a team with other people - other bands, engineers, the catering guy, the whole crew and I never had problems with anyone. If professional equals cynical like some people seem to be here, I'd rather stay amateur and love making music. But honestly, I have worked as a roady/stagehand on festivals and between all the pro-bands I have experienced a lot of calm and happy people loving their job, no stressed-out cycnical people pretending to know everything.

I believe in Karma, I believe that whenever I play the arrogant musician-*******-card, it will come back to me sooner or later. I played it once (and I made sure I played it well), the soundguy wasn't into teamwork and my diplomatic skills have a limit, too. But even that had been fixed before the show!!

 

[BurningSkies]

What you don't realize (and I don't know which 2 posters you speak of) is how many bassists here are also professional sound guys, like myself. I played professionally for 20 years then worked in the pro sound business for another 20 years. I've been to several manufacturers' training classes an seminars to set up, rig, align, and maintain professional sound systems for national acts of all kinds. And in a very short time, I've come to realize that there are many, many people here with the same or very similar pedigrees. As for me, I've almost all but stopped the pro sound career and gone back to playing bass (I still work for the same company, but I'm a shop rat/logistics guy now).

So that's where my point of view comes from. All that experience doesn't at all qualify me or anyone else to dictate what works for each individual player here. But I am dismayed at the lack of middle ground or flexibility displayed by pretty much all sides of this issue.

My position is that, when I'm playing, I like as few electronics as possible in the way of the bass on its way to the PA speakers. That's why I've owned a Countryman DI for 35 years, until 3 years ago, when I bought a Radial JDI Jensen-equipped DI. And in all these years, I've never had a sound guy refuse to use my DIs, opting for their own preference (except some recording dates where an Avalon was used). I've never felt the need for FX on the bass. That's just me, that's what works for me, I"m not about to put down players that use various FX units.

When I'm a sound guy, yes, I ask what the bassists' preference is and in all these years, I can count on one hand the players that have a specific request on how their signal is taken. When that's case, I'll use one of our Radial JDIs and if time and inputs allow, I"ll use a Shure Beta 52 mic on the cabinet. Then I listen to both and, again, if left to my own, I'll use one or the other, or both, especially if the player has a pedalboard or other effects. As for the DI, I place it at the last cable going to the amp so I can catch whatever FX are being used. One thing I've discovered is that when effects are used, they seem to sound better and blend better when a mic is used on the cabinet. Overdrive sounds and chorus-y sounds seem kinda harsh to my ear when used directly to the PA.

So there's my take on this topic that I've resisted putting out there until now. Your shot across the bow to sound guys was close to home since there are so many players here that do both. So go easy on the generalizations while you are issuing your edicts about who should or should not participate here.

Geri O

From this thread you'd think that it's an out and out battle when you show up to soundcheck for most people, and I think that it's not. For me, 90% of the time when I say 'I have a DI out on my preamp that sounds great and I'd love to use'...it gets used without a second thought or comment from sound. I set up and check with the volume I use and again, I can think of ONE time in the past several years where a soundman asked me to turn down (not my rig, DI or setup). I did, although it personally sucked to spend a set playing and not hearing myself.

Have I been offered a mic regularly? No. That's fine, I prefer my own DI anyway. I occasionally have shown up to find one, and on occasion I've had sound offer both mic and DI. Have I had soundmen balk at using my own feed? Sometimes. Usually the desire to just hand me an XLR rather than go and dig the DI out of the milkcrate or gear cabinet or paw around behind my amp in the dark is pretty attractive to a soundman. Have I gotten heat for my DI being post EQ? No. I don't volunteer that information and if no one asks, I'm not saying a word. If you want pre-DI eq from me, you're going to have to be creative, since I have active electronics on my bass and use them.

My DI ground is set to 'lift'...I ran it this way without a problem for over a year, then later had that confirmed by the preamp/DI's designer. I've had one or two soundguys freak like I was going to kill myself or them...which means they don't really understand how the ground works on them as opposed to the ground on an amp. I switched it for them because it made them go to that happy emotional place.

Do I run into good sound people in about 60% of the gigs we do in rooms that provide sound. 15% of the time I find a guy who says something like "they forgot to call the usual guys...I normally work door, but I can do this" and 25% of the time we have someone who mostly knows what they're doing but is more semi-pro when it comes to the finer points.

Many shows we do our own sound. That can mean subs, 15's 12's and horns with plenty of power and a decent board and a rack of compressors, EQ and effects or it can mean speakers on stands and a powered integrated mixer for just vocals. Depends upon the room and the gig. Lots of small rooms don't WANT you to show up with a big system and it will actively scare them from booking you again. I've also done some shows in small rooms where people brought the big stuff and it was stupid. Too loud, too much space taken up and no benefit to the actual sound.

 

[JimmyM]

I do not understand why this is so much of an issue for so many people.
I had the chance to work with some professionals 3 times, and it was a blessing to see someone actually read our rider, understand it and come to us saying "OK let's find out how we can get the best sound out of it". What I do not understand is how some people (on both sides) can be so arrogant to determine what's best without even asking.
The soundman would ask what we use, if we might have a certain idea or experience with gear or usage and we find a way to get the best out of it. He does not know my rig, so he is willing to learn it. I do not know his desk, FXs, Amps, PA or the room, so how can I possibly be so arrogant to tell him what to do?

Man, did you miss the conversation trail or what? It ain't the good ones anyone's complaining about, and I can't speak for everyone but the vast majority of my experiences with soundmen are positive. It's those negative ones that suck the life out of you. Keep doing it long enough and you will have them, too.

in my experience, behaviour like that comes back to you - again, this holds for both sides. Being the musician or the FOH engineer, you have a job to do and you can do it best when you work together as a team. It might be because I am no professional, but I love to work in a team with other people - other bands, engineers, the catering guy, the whole crew and I never had problems with anyone. If professional equals cynical like some people seem to be here, I'd rather stay amateur and love making music. But honestly, I have worked as a roady/stagehand on festivals and between all the pro-bands I have experienced a lot of calm and happy people loving their job, no stressed-out cycnical people pretending to know everything.

Again, you haven't done it long enough. Most situations ARE calm and not stressed out and cynical. But when you have a 3 hour rehearsal scheduled before a 3 o'clock show and by 1:30 the PA's still not up, you'll get stressed out REAL quick. Or when you get ordered by a soundman to hook up your gear in a way you know you don't like through your vast years of experience hating it that way, or something similar, it tends to make you cynical.

 

[Pako]

Man, did you miss the conversation trail or what? It ain't the good ones anyone's complaining about, and I can't speak for everyone but the vast majority of my experiences with soundmen are positive. It's those negative ones that suck the life out of you. Keep doing it long enough and you will have them, too.


Again, you haven't done it long enough. Most situations ARE calm and not stressed out and cynical. But when you have a 3 hour rehearsal scheduled before a 3 o'clock show and by 1:30 the PA's still not up, you'll get stressed out REAL quick. Or when you get ordered by a soundman to hook up your gear in a way you know you don't like through your vast years of experience hating it that way, or something similar, it tends to make you cynical.

Ahhhhh. Yep.

 

[vbchaos]

Again, you haven't done it long enough. Most situations ARE calm and not stressed out and cynical. But when you have a 3 hour rehearsal scheduled before a 3 o'clock show and by 1:30 the PA's still not up, you'll get stressed out REAL quick. Or when you get ordered by a soundman to hook up your gear in a way you know you don't like through your vast years of experience hating it that way, or something similar, it tends to make you cynical.

I do not get the point of letting other's people lack of ability to follow appointments make me change my positive attitude.

but thanks anyway, I do understand now why this thread has 42 pages

 

[two fingers]

Yeah, I know some sound companies feel like the band is window dressing for their sound gear

I'm sure you could make my gear look GREAT!