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Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

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#861
squeezer said:
The totality of my statements so far is pretty much that different setups and sounds work for different people, some setups make it much easier to get the "right" sound at FOH than others, just because you sound good on-stage doesn't mean you sound good out front, micing up a cabinet needs to be done right, musicians and soundmen should work together to get the best sound, the soundman should listen to the onstage sound to see what the band wants to sound like, it helps if musicians understand how PA and mixing works, and that blaming "the other guy" all the time can be counter-productive.

Anyone honestly disagree with any of this?
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Not me, despite what you (probably) think.
 
#863
squeezer said:
It's very easy to misunderstand people's point of view when all you can see is what they write... ;-)
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Sometimes people use a quote as starting point to expand on ideas. Kind of like quoting a musical phrase you jus may have played, and taking it in a different direction.

Try this: between the second word (apparently) of my response and the 3rd (And), add this:

"The following is an exchange between a hypothetical bassist and a hypothetical soundman. It is not (as stated) a personal dig at squeezer nor anyone else per se, but it does incorporate some of his and other people's ideas and positions."

Sometimes I'll play devils advocate. Sometimes it's debating for the sake of debate. Sometimes I'll challenge your position just to see what motivates you. As you said, such is life on the Internet. You don't HAVE to engage me or anyone else, you know. ;)
 
#864
I had one situation where I didn't take my amp (marshall bass state 65) because we were all using the same amps. It was a music school production and the pa was excellent. The bass amp was white horse and sounded a bit poo. It was micd but id much rather it was DI'd because tge pa system was a lot better than that amp
 
#867
Funny, that exact thing happened to me last night. I played a venue where the backline was provided. I used some GK amp that may have been decent but I didn't have time to experiment with it and sounded bad on stage. I felt relieved of some responsibility when the sound guy told me he was running me direct. Sounded way better on the recording playback. Phew. Because I was feeling shaky about it on stage.
 
#868
jtroska said:
Funny, that exact thing happened to me last night. I played a venue where the backline was provided. I used some GK amp that may have been decent but I didn't have time to experiment with it and sounded bad on stage. I felt relieved of some responsibility when the sound guy told me he was running me direct. Sounded way better on the recording playback. Phew. Because I was feeling shaky about it on stage.
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Yeah, I'd be turning knobs - after all, what did you have to lose at that point??? I can dial in a somewhat workable sound in well under a minute on pretty much anything - would be doing something, rather than play and sound bad... I also ALWAYS carry a good DI with me, so I know I'll always have a quality send to the board, no matter what...


- georgestrings
 
#870
jtroska said:
Funny, that exact thing happened to me last night. I played a venue where the backline was provided. I used some GK amp that may have been decent but I didn't have time to experiment with it and sounded bad on stage. I felt relieved of some responsibility when the sound guy told me he was running me direct. Sounded way better on the recording playback. Phew. Because I was feeling shaky about it on stage.
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I hear that. I love my own rig mic'ed but I'd rather go DI with an unfamiliar rig. Last time I had to use a provided backline rig was at Riot Fest in Chicago this past September. I had to use an Aguilar DB750 with a stack of two matching 4x10 cabs. I thought it sounded great setting up before our set but it ended up sounding horrible with the band. Can't hate the DI there. For situations like that, it's nice to know that most likely, the FOH sound is gonna be better than what you have on stage.
 
#871
I just realized something, maybe my XLR panel is one of the reasons I never get asked to use a DI before my rig. if you can see in the crappy photo I actually have a panel in my rack I had made with XLR outs so I dont have to break out a flashlight and climb behind gear to hook an xlr up in the back of my rack.
 

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#873
Wow...long thread. I've been scanning through this thread for the last few days here and there until I got to the end.

Squeezer - I definitely appreciate your comments in here and seem to identify with where you are coming from the most, along with others who have taken your stance. As a bass player, the bass is usually what sounds the worst to me at live shows with the drums being a close second. No matter how big the show is, or how professional, the bass is always the least attractive when run through a PA. Whenever you hit that magical show where it just sounds perfect, you better enjoy it while you can. I'm speaking from the perspective of an audience member, not a player on stage.

For me as a player, just getting over whether or not my bass sounds uber-great in the FOH has been a huge release. I can't worry about that. The band as a whole can still sound fantastic, and people will give you credit for being part of it. That's all you can ask for really. Instead I just want it to sound great to me on stage so that I can enjoy what I'm playing. Then I will play better, more inspired perhaps, and that'll help the audience connect with what I'm doing. That's what counts anyway, so I have learned rather slowly to put my energy and focus on that.
 
#874
JimmyM said:
Only 3 lines? But how will you get your sound with only 3 lines?

:D
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:) i normally only use one for bass, if i run two channels the second is almost always a mic. I had 3 jacks installed because i use to have a huge 16 space rack with a lot of other junk including a 4 space rack drawer and two wireless systems for vocals. Actually made for a really quick setup at shows.
 
#875
Interesting stuff. I play a lot of very heavy metal on small stages; the drummers are so loud that I understand why I'm rarely micced. The interesting part is that I used to get killed in mixes all the time. I also used to get into hate-fests with incompetent soundmen who tried to convince me that distortion on bass doesn't work (for example).

All that has changed in the last year as I've improved my tone. I fell in love with Genz Benz and started using a Shuttlemax 12. So most of the time now they take the sound direct from the post-EQ out on the amp head and I'm fine with that. I get feedback from the soundmen that get EXCITED at my bass tone (if they are excited then I'm secure that I'm not getting buried) and I get positive feedback from my girlfriend who has good taste that the sound of the bass is good and audible.

For example, last night I played a multi-band benefit where two of the other bassists were fantastic musicians. One of them provided a backline but we each brought our own heads. Bassist 1 was the loudest mixed one all night and he sounded great with a Liquid 550 GK head, but I felt bad for his vocalist who was poorly mixed. Bassist 2 had a Hartke head and an overall muddy sound; if that is how he EQs himself then it's not surprising that he was not very present in the mix. Since bass carries, I heard what he was doing better when I went into the bathroom and into a back room. Since the mixes were all over the place, I asked for feedback after the show. I heard that I was mixed as loud as Bassist 1 but that my notes were more distinct. My reaction was "oh no, was I too loud?" Answer: "No, the vocals and the rest of the band sounded good too."

Short version: cabinets not necessary except for the head to push against. Good head/bass/FX + post-EQ direct = good house sound.
 
#876
Kragnorak said:
So most of the time now they take the sound direct from the post-EQ out on the amp head and I'm fine with that. I get feedback from the soundmen that get EXCITED at my bass tone (if they are excited then I'm secure that I'm not getting buried) and I get positive feedback from my girlfriend who has good taste that the sound of the bass is good and audible.

Short version: cabinets not necessary except for the head to push against. Good head/bass/FX + post-EQ direct = good house sound.
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I agree with you completely with two caveats. First, once the amp is set during sound check, the only onstage changes I make afterward are Master volume to the cabinets and maybe a little change of the PTC on my bass. No bass/treble boosting for sure. The second caveat is that a person needs to train his ears on what a good bass tone is. I know this is very subjective and the cause for big debates around here. I love everything from dark vintage tones to bright modern sizzly stuff, but a lot of the EQ I see/hear other bass players using is very puzzling to me. For example, if you have a great sounding jazz bass, there is no reason to boost bass and treble each by 10 dB. That'll make your bass sound like crap in a PA.

I think it's good to learn to love a dry bass signal...it'll serve you well. Doesn't mean it has to be your favorite, or that you can't do other things. But there are some times when a dry signal becomes necessary, perhaps in a pinch, and if you can't enjoy that then your screwed for the night.
 
#878
Sharing is fine as long as you know that there's a great chance that you're going to be suffering and unhappy once you actually get there.

I've done this on nights where I knew that our set time would be brief...I can make it through nearly anything for 30 minutes or less. :D

On 45 minutes up to 4 hours, not so much.
 
#880
BanjoNoise said:
most sound guys are of that caliber... technically it could sound better direct in ... but do you really want someone else equalizing your bass sound...
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Dear lord, the answer is absolutely! You want the FOH guy equalizing your bass sound. That is his job and if he doesn't EQ your bass at all then the chances are MUCH higher that it'll sound bad than it is that it'll sound good. This applies regardless of whether you send him a direct signal, some cab simulation, a mic'ed cabinet, whatever. Chances are very high that it will need some EQ to fit the room, the configuration of the PA being used, the other instruments that are being mixed in, etc, etc.

I think your comment kind of highlights the general idea of this discussion that some people are missing, which is that there are unique needs for mixing sound in a PA. Simply sending the FOH "your tone" with "your EQ" doesn't mean it'll sound good in the house without some modification, perhaps drastic modification.

What you want is a great sound engineer who is EQ'ing your bass to fit in the mix. I think we should all be able to agree on that. The problem is that sometimes (or maybe often for some) we do not get that. In those cases, some people feel that sending "their tone" to the FOH helps them overcome a poor sound guy. Other people feel that it only makes it worse since a flat DI signal can often times be easier for a novice sound guy to make sound good. As a result, we have a difference of opinion here on the right path to take. That's why this dead horse will never be buried, because there are simply too many people in line waiting to take a swing at it.
 
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