Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[BurningSkies]

I agree. I DO want a soundman to use EQ effectively for the room. That's important. And if the message that some are taking is 'hands off of all the knobs' (take that as you will), that's not what a lot of us are getting at. There's a big difference between understanding and transmitting the tonal character of the bass to FOH and not wanting someone to rearrange all your tonal furniture.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Dear lord, the answer is absolutely! You want the FOH guy equalizing your bass sound. That is his job and if he doesn't EQ your bass at all then the chances are MUCH higher that it'll sound bad than it is that it'll sound good. This applies regardless of whether you send him a direct signal, some cab simulation, a mic'ed cabinet, whatever. Chances are very high that it will need some EQ to fit the room, the configuration of the PA being used, the other instruments that are being mixed in, etc, etc.

I think your comment kind of highlights the general idea of this discussion that some people are missing, which is that there are unique needs for mixing sound in a PA. Simply sending the FOH "your tone" with "your EQ" doesn't mean it'll sound good in the house without some modification, perhaps drastic modification.

What you want is a great sound engineer who is EQ'ing your bass to fit in the mix. I think we should all be able to agree on that. The problem is that sometimes (or maybe often for some) we do not get that. In those cases, some people feel that sending "their tone" to the FOH helps them overcome a poor sound guy. Other people feel that it only makes it worse since a flat DI signal can often times be easier for a novice sound guy to make sound good. As a result, we have a difference of opinion here on the right path to take. That's why this dead horse will never be buried, because there are simply too many people in line waiting to take a swing at it.

You're just as wrong as the other guy. PA's need to be tuned to rooms. Then rig sound needs minor tweaks in PA to achieve the bassist's intentions.

Unfortunately many bands haven't a clue how to get a musical mix happening onstage, garbage in garbage out, but some people like garbage.

Long live live music.

 

[Eublet]

You're just as wrong as the other guy. PA's need to be tuned to rooms. Then rig sound needs minor tweaks in PA to achieve the bassist's intentions.

Unfortunately many bands haven't a clue how to get a musical mix happening onstage, garbage in garbage out, but some people like garbage.

Long live live music.

I never said the PA doesn't need to be tuned to the room. In fact, I'm in agreement with you. The rig sound SHOULD need minor changes in order to sound good in the PA. But that's exactly my point. If you send a highly EQ'ed signal (from your Post-EQ amp or pedal), or a poor sounding mic'ed signal, then the sound guy will have a lot of work to do to get the signal to sound right. Some will be better able to deal with this than others, whether the reason is due to skill or time. That's why many people in this thread are arguing for a flat DI signal. Most every decent bass made will sound good direct with some minor tweaks. Using a good DI, the signal will be strong, even and have fairly low noise. There will not be phase issues, or bleeding from a mic, nor will there be as much worry about the mic moving by being bumped or something.

I think everyone here is in agreement over wanting to get "our sound" in the PA. What we disagree with is the way to get it while minimizing the risk for issues.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Highly eq'd might just be necessary to punch a hole in the the guitar. Bloody guitards are the root of all this disquiet. We all used to be happy as Larry plunking away on double basses, owning the bottom 2 octaves, not a PA to be seen.

 

[Eublet]

Highly eq'd might just be necessary to punch a hole in the the guitar. Bloody guitards are the root of all this disquiet. We all used to be happy as Larry plunking away on double basses, owning the bottom 2 octaves, not a PA to be seen.

haha...perhaps. Honestly, I blame modern PA's with all those massive subs. . To me, nothing sounds better than those small, intimate gigs where the bass and guitar rigs carry most of the sound, and the PA is just there to enhance that a little bit while carrying the vocals and percussion.

 

[Kragnorak]

I agree with you completely with two caveats. First, once the amp is set during sound check, the only onstage changes I make afterward are Master volume to the cabinets and maybe a little change of the PTC on my bass.

Right, makes sense. My caveat is that the glorified stage monitor earns its glory! I hate playing without a good cab, because bass through the monitors is usually junk and bands tend to play better when they sound good to themselves. My most frustrating gigs lately have been outdoor gigs. I'm sure I sounded fine to the crowd, but my cab doesn't have enough headroom for outdoor gigs where the sound dissipates. But I know this is a personal problem and nothing to do with the sound engineer. I just need that 2nd 8-ohm cabinet as Mylanta for GAS

 

[Downunderwonder]

haha...perhaps. Honestly, I blame modern PA's with all those massive subs. . To me, nothing sounds better than those small, intimate gigs where the bass and guitar rigs carry most of the sound, and the PA is just there to enhance that a little bit while carrying the vocals and percussion.

That is a pipedream around here. You can enhance guitar a whole lot easier than bass. Our PA's don't highpass bass to be able to do "a little bit" of enhancement. It's all or nothing. Our biggest intimate setting is 300. You can either go big or go small with the stage bass.

 

[jj4001]

haha...perhaps. Honestly, I blame modern PA's with all those massive subs. . To me, nothing sounds better than those small, intimate gigs where the bass and guitar rigs carry most of the sound, and the PA is just there to enhance that a little bit while carrying the vocals and percussion.

Couldn't agree more.

I feel like my band sounds its best when our amps carry the house while the PA handles vocals and kick drum. This is often not an option though. Regardless, I still find that putting in the effort to self-mix is important. I like having only vocals in my monitor, if at all possible, because it makes singing harmony easier. That means my guitarist, drummer, and I need to match our volumes and EQ the amps so they compliment each other, even when everything is going through the PA.

 

[bigchiefbc]

I agree with you completely with two caveats. First, once the amp is set during sound check, the only onstage changes I make afterward are Master volume to the cabinets and maybe a little change of the PTC on my bass. No bass/treble boosting for sure. The second caveat is that a person needs to train his ears on what a good bass tone is. I know this is very subjective and the cause for big debates around here. I love everything from dark vintage tones to bright modern sizzly stuff, but a lot of the EQ I see/hear other bass players using is very puzzling to me. For example, if you have a great sounding jazz bass, there is no reason to boost bass and treble each by 10 dB. That'll make your bass sound like crap in a PA.

Again, though, we come back to this: what is "good bass tone"? You said that you know this is subjective, but then seem to imply there is an objectively good tone we need to train our ears for.

I think it's good to learn to love a dry bass signal...it'll serve you well. Doesn't mean it has to be your favorite, or that you can't do other things. But there are some times when a dry signal becomes necessary, perhaps in a pinch, and if you can't enjoy that then your screwed for the night.

It's pretty hard to make yourself like something, which I learned the hard way, getting dragged to musicals by my wife. I'm just not a fan of dry bass sounds, and I never really have been. All of my favorite bass tones, both recorded and live, are overdriven/distorted to some extent. And I've never found pedal overdrive that "did" it for me, at least not enough to have as my always-on tone.

 

[ThisBass]

Most of all gigs I played in my live had been events where the PA did a supporting job.
Thus the sound I did on stage was inevitable addressed to the audience, therefore most of the time mixed with out of front.
IMO the presence of PA support does not mean an automatism that sound addressed to the audience derives exclusively out of front. It depends!

I never had the pleasure to play a stadium event where the bass sound is derived by 100% out of front onto the audience.

 

[Korladis]

Again, though, we come back to this: what is "good bass tone"? You said that you know this is subjective, but then seem to imply there is an objectively good tone we need to train our ears for.



It's pretty hard to make yourself like something, which I learned the hard way, getting dragged to musicals by my wife. I'm just not a fan of dry bass sounds, and I never really have been. All of my favorite bass tones, both recorded and live, are overdriven/distorted to some extent. And I've never found pedal overdrive that "did" it for me, at least not enough to have as my always-on tone.

+1

I can enjoy multiple bass tones while recognizing also that they probably wouldn't work for what I'm doing in the bands I'm in.

I use a different tone in my metal stuff than I do when playing with the folk band, because the musical context is different.

I still use a bit of overdrive in the folk stuff, but it's a more 60's/70's type of sound.

The metal sound I use is much more overdriven, and is much more mid-focused, to fit into the notch in the mix made by somewhat scooped guitars. It's a much different mix than the folk stuff, and so calls for a different bass sound.

 

[Eublet]

Again, though, we come back to this: what is "good bass tone"? You said that you know this is subjective, but then seem to imply there is an objectively good tone we need to train our ears for.

I understand that, and it is why I suggested how subjective it was when I first posted it. But there are some things that folks should just be able to like if they call themselves a bass player. For example, a plain ol' J or P bass plugged into just about anything decent, with no FX, overdrive, or EQ. If a person doesn't like that, I question if they're really a bass player.

It's pretty hard to make yourself like something, which I learned the hard way, getting dragged to musicals by my wife. I'm just not a fan of dry bass sounds, and I never really have been. All of my favorite bass tones, both recorded and live, are overdriven/distorted to some extent. And I've never found pedal overdrive that "did" it for me, at least not enough to have as my always-on tone.

You both countered my comment and demonstrated it all at the same time above. I know what you mean, so I'm not picking on any one person. I have chased overdrive pedals myself, and preamp/DI's, and all manner of bass rigs in order to get a "better sound". I've also found that when doing that I grew less and less to appreciate the purity of the instrument. I got to the point where I couldn't enjoy the sound of a direct Jazz bass. That's a shame on so many levels IMHO.

I think you can learn to like anything. It's a matter of being exposed to it in the right context. In fact, most people love and appreicate pure bass tones all the time. They're all over recordings throughout history, as are heavily FX'ed tones. The problem for many of us is that when we are in a situation somewhere and can't get "our perfect tone" we wind up twiddling knobs all night, or talking to the sound guy during breaks in order to make changes, or not being able to let go and just enjoy the moment.

I'm not saying you can't strive for certain tones, but I am suggesting that many of us do need to learn more how to go with the flow of things. Bass is just not one of those instruments that is always going to sound the same on every gig. It's dynamic range and sensitivity to environment is just one of those things that makes it what it is. I'm always amazed by the players who always think their bass sounds great, and that they always seem to love whatever musical setting they're playing in. That's a quality that I think is worth striving for. I don't think you get there by chasing a certain tone.

 

[ThisBass]

Sharing amps never leads to good, bro.

I spent my rig (svt + 212) for backline sometimes. Ähm no, I myself was not on stage but, it was every time a nice happening. had lots of fun with the sound guy, and the svt-rig performed great with every band.

 

[Korladis]

Sharing amps never leads to good, bro.

I'm okay with it when I know the people sharing my gear. I've let friends use my rig before.

My band's rigs were the backline for a whole show, once. Four bands used my setup, but I knew the bassist of each band except the last one, and he was going for a similar sound to myself, so it was fine.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

I was thinking about this"dilemma" for a while now, and came to this conclusion: So long as I am happy with how I sound on stage all is good, the audience probably doesn't even care what the bass sounds like, most of them, anyway.

 

[Tomkat8]

A lot of sound guys i've run across try to make the drums as loud as possible, drowning out everything, especially vocals and bass. It's frustrating

 

[bigchiefbc]

I understand that, and it is why I suggested how subjective it was when I first posted it. But there are some things that folks should just be able to like if they call themselves a bass player. For example, a plain ol' J or P bass plugged into just about anything decent, with no FX, overdrive, or EQ. If a person doesn't like that, I question if they're really a bass player.

Well at least we're getting somewhere. So if someone doesn't like the bass tone you consider to be standard, you question whether they're really a bass player? You seem to have a pretty strict definition of what a bass player is (and isn't).

You both countered my comment and demonstrated it all at the same time above. I know what you mean, so I'm not picking on any one person. I have chased overdrive pedals myself, and preamp/DI's, and all manner of bass rigs in order to get a "better sound". I've also found that when doing that I grew less and less to appreciate the purity of the instrument. I got to the point where I couldn't enjoy the sound of a direct Jazz bass. That's a shame on so many levels IMHO.

I think you misunderstood me, if you think I demonstrated your point, because I completely disagree with your point. What I was saying is that I generally don't like playing bass without some overdrive, and I never found a pedal that could do it justice, so I have to use my amp to get that overdrive. That's why I don't like DI'ing. Because I lose all of the overdrive I get from my amp. I don't care about "purity of the instrument". I care about getting a dirty ballsy overdriven bass tone that I like. And you can't do that with a direct bass signal.

I think you can learn to like anything. It's a matter of being exposed to it in the right context. In fact, most people love and appreicate pure bass tones all the time. They're all over recordings throughout history, as are heavily FX'ed tones. The problem for many of us is that when we are in a situation somewhere and can't get "our perfect tone" we wind up twiddling knobs all night, or talking to the sound guy during breaks in order to make changes, or not being able to let go and just enjoy the moment.

Perhaps some people do that, I don't. When I'm forced to DI, I make my objection known at the outset, then I just shut up and do my job. I don't twiddle knobs all night, because no amount of knob twiddling is going to get me what I want. But I certainly don't like the sound that is coming out the speakers, and neither do my bandmates. They've grown used to my bass sound as well.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Fwiw, I agree completely with Bigchiefbc's interpretations. It sure sounds like Eublet defends cookie cutter bass tone styling via DI as the "best way".

 

[Eublet]

You're still demonstrating my point. You just don't agree with it.

 

[bigchiefbc]

You're still demonstrating my point. You just don't agree with it.

Which apparently makes you question whether I'm "really a bass player"