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Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

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#1,001
mancefine said:
Your sound seems to be directly related to whether or not the sound guy got laid the night before or not.
Click to expand...

Haha....so true. :D

The clubs you mentioned are the better ones. Back then it was Steamboat, Babe's Stageside, etc. Stuff changes ownership down there every couple of years, except for the 20 or 30 that are all owned by the same guy.

Oddly, I got the best mix and tone I've ever had one time at the concrete box that is/was Antone's on W. 5th street. I had amp troubles and rented one of those blue carpet Yorkville combo's from Rock-n-Roll Rentals. It sounded like crap at home, so I tried disconnecting the combo speaker and running the amp to a Carvin 115 cab I had....100 times better. So, I took the amp out of the combo, and brought it and my 115 cab to the gig. No DI on the amp and they were having some problem with their DI box or feed or something, so they stuck some mic on my cab last minute...as a "last resort" sort of fix to get the show going. I don't know what type of mic it was, but my tone was incredible. Fat, full, punchy, defined, up where it belonged in the mix, etc. All of the good stuff, none of the bad. Makes ya wonder......:)

I verified this by listening out front, getting compliments from people I trust, as well as a recording off the board. Except for some highend hiss, which was a result of boosting highs in the live system to overcome all the bodies in the room, and the fact that my bass was a little too hot off the board (but sat just right out in the room), that board recording is still one of the best we had from that band, even though all the other recordings were studio and that one just took the mix that was needed for the room that day and threw it in tape.:) It was "alive" and sounded great. One off live recording, no overdubs, no mixing, no mastering, no nuthin'.

Again....makes ya wonder.....
 
#1,002
* Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

* Why have a nice sounding bass tone only to have the sound guy kill it with compression, limiting, EQ, and a bad mix?

Seems that the sound guy is often the arch enemy of all musicians. Bands that can afford it, hire their own sound crew for a reason. There are great tools available today to ensure that the sound is done right. Unfortunately, most venues don't have these tools and even when they do, the sound people don't know how to use them.

It's a little better all the time. (It can't get no worse.) We heard that a long time ago.
 
#1,003
mancefine said:
Something like this actually makes alot of sense. What is a decent system to look in to to acheive this?
Click to expand...
If you like mic'ed tube amps, I can't recommend the REDDI highly enough as your centerpiece. It's big and expensive, but sounds like a speaker DI'd tube amp. Might want to get some sort of filter to cut highs past 5k if you use a lot of distortion. I use pedals with that built in though I'm looking for something that won't affect my amp sound, as everything I use now does. But even a pedal like the VT or the Oxford in your case is much better than getting stuck with an Imp 2 or something.
 
#1,005
JimmyM said:
I'll put it this way, Jim...I would MUCH rather do an ampless gig with a setup like what you're using than only the stuff that was available in the 80's and 90's. It is much more tolerable now. But I still can't do it. I like amps too much and it's way less hard to get a good sound than it sounds in your post.
Click to expand...

Well, I'd be lying to you if I said that I didn't miss my SVT rig on stage. I love it! I use my 8x10 in rehearsals, much to the dismay of my bandmates (I'm loud!).

I just got to a certain point in my life where a different career path became the way I make my living, and music as a top priority took a back seat. I'm getting older, and I need to travel light and set up fast. So, it's not that I LOVE the modeler/cab emulator route so much as that it just makes my life a lot easier, and in the end, I'm a practical guy. But I do like it well enough to use it and stand by it.

I also understand the mentality of a lot of sound techs having done it for years myself. I don't have the energy to fight those guys anymore...just not worth it.
 
#1,006
will33 said:
Haha....so true. :D

The clubs you mentioned are the better ones. Back then it was Steamboat, Babe's Stageside, etc. Stuff changes ownership down there every couple of years, except for the 20 or 30 that are all owned by the same guy.

Oddly, I got the best mix and tone I've ever had one time at the concrete box that is/was Antone's on W. 5th street. I had amp troubles and rented one of those blue carpet Yorkville combo's from Rock-n-Roll Rentals. It sounded like crap at home, so I tried disconnecting the combo speaker and running the amp to a Carvin 115 cab I had....100 times better. So, I took the amp out of the combo, and brought it and my 115 cab to the gig. No DI on the amp and they were having some problem with their DI box or feed or something, so they stuck some mic on my cab last minute...as a "last resort" sort of fix to get the show going. I don't know what type of mic it was, but my tone was incredible. Fat, full, punchy, defined, up where it belonged in the mix, etc. All of the good stuff, none of the bad. Makes ya wonder......:)

I verified this by listening out front, getting compliments from people I trust, as well as a recording off the board. Except for some highend hiss, which was a result of boosting highs in the live system to overcome all the bodies in the room, and the fact that my bass was a little too hot off the board (but sat just right out in the room), that board recording is still one of the best we had from that band, even though all the other recordings were studio and that one just took the mix that was needed for the room that day and threw it in tape.:) It was "alive" and sounded great. One off live recording, no overdubs, no mixing, no mastering, no nuthin'.

Again....makes ya wonder.....[/QUOTH

HAHAHAHA. It's hilarious you said that about Antone's, because it happens to be that exact building that spawned this entire thread. It's called Infest now, and that's where I dealt with the guy who wouldn't mic me.
Click to expand...
 
#1,007
mancefine said:
will33 said:
Haha....so true. :D

The clubs you mentioned are the better ones. Back then it was Steamboat, Babe's Stageside, etc. Stuff changes ownership down there every couple of years, except for the 20 or 30 that are all owned by the same guy.

Oddly, I got the best mix and tone I've ever had one time at the concrete box that is/was Antone's on W. 5th street. I had amp troubles and rented one of those blue carpet Yorkville combo's from Rock-n-Roll Rentals. It sounded like crap at home, so I tried disconnecting the combo speaker and running the amp to a Carvin 115 cab I had....100 times better. So, I took the amp out of the combo, and brought it and my 115 cab to the gig. No DI on the amp and they were having some problem with their DI box or feed or something, so they stuck some mic on my cab last minute...as a "last resort" sort of fix to get the show going. I don't know what type of mic it was, but my tone was incredible. Fat, full, punchy, defined, up where it belonged in the mix, etc. All of the good stuff, none of the bad. Makes ya wonder......:)

I verified this by listening out front, getting compliments from people I trust, as well as a recording off the board. Except for some highend hiss, which was a result of boosting highs in the live system to overcome all the bodies in the room, and the fact that my bass was a little too hot off the board (but sat just right out in the room), that board recording is still one of the best we had from that band, even though all the other recordings were studio and that one just took the mix that was needed for the room that day and threw it in tape.:) It was "alive" and sounded great. One off live recording, no overdubs, no mixing, no mastering, no nuthin'.

Again....makes ya wonder.....[/QUOTH

HAHAHAHA. It's hilarious you said that about Antone's, because it happens to be that exact building that spawned this entire thread. It's called Infest now, and that's where I dealt with the guy who wouldn't mic me.
Click to expand...

I've heard Tommy Shannon's, and a lot of other good bassists, tone disappear more than once in that building. The only reason I got done right that one time is because they did a bunch of stuff last minute, just to get the show off the ground, that they otherwise would not have done. ;)

Haven't been there since it became Infest. Don't know if it's the same sound crew...might be the same system...I really don't know.

I wouldn't mind coming out to have a listen to you guys.
Click to expand...
 
#1,008
beans-on-toast said:
* Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

* Why have a nice sounding bass tone only to have the sound guy kill it with compression, limiting, EQ, and a bad mix?

Seems that the sound guy is often the arch enemy of all musicians. Bands that can afford it, hire their own sound crew for a reason. There are great tools available today to ensure that the sound is done right. Unfortunately, most venues don't have these tools and even when they do, the sound people don't know how to use them.

It's a little better all the time. (It can't get no worse.) We heard that a long time ago.
Click to expand...

Good soundmen can be our best friends, bad ones can be our worst enemy. Let's face it, soundmen get to play God. It doesn't matter what you've got up there or how it's connected...if I'm sitting behind the board and I want to make you sound like crap...I can. Even if I don't want to make you sound like crap, but I just don't care enough to make you sound good...you'll sound like crap. ;)
 
#1,010
Also, re: the response of the P2.....since when is "flat" a desirable goal?.....especially 2 inches from a speaker that is right next to other speakers????

As far as the topend lift....that is pretty much negated when placing it in front of a "musical instrument speaker"....even a guitar speaker.

Thanks to JimmyM, FloydEye, DownunderWonder, and a couple others, I've decided the P2 is going to be my next present to myself....it even won out over some tubes or speaker purchases. :eek:

I figure it will get me great use and pleasure, and severly up my game....thanks guys.
 
#1,011
mancefine said:
Something like this actually makes alot of sense. What is a decent system to look in to to acheive this?
Click to expand...

Most of the stuff is pretty expensive, and hardware with built-in IRs, or ones that allow you to make or load custom IRs are few and far between:

- 2 Notes Torpedo C.A.B/Live/VB101: the C.A.B is the least expensive, but has a great set of features for cabinet, mic, mic placement, power amp tube modeling, etc., for a little over $500US for the C.A.B., more for the other units.

- Fractal Audio Systems AxeFx standard/Ultra/AxeFxII: These are fully blown all-in-one preamp effects processors with cabinet emulation. Standard/Ultra versions are powerful, but now discontinued, and less elegant than the newer AxeFxII, which has USB, and a broader feature set, more stock bass cab models, and the ability for the user to capture their own custom IRs. AFXII $2200US

- Kemper Profiling Amp: just as it says, it profiles actual amplifiers (amp/and cabinet) using a proprietary capture scheme. This is generally viewed as an all-in-one system, and I'm not so sure you'd get much good use from this PURELY for just cabinet emulation. It seems implicit that you'd also want to "bake in" the amp modeling as well. $1800+US

Otherwise, there is a gamut of amp modelers with cabinets "baked" into the amp models (ZOOM, Line 6, Boss, etc.), which have limited application with respect to high quality IRs, though all of them use some sort of impulse response for their cabinet simulations. I use the ZOOM B3 all the time, even though I have the AxeFx units. When finances permit, I'll be exploring the 2 Notes C.A.B. as an intermediate interface bridging the gap between the lowly Zoom and the ultra fancy AxeFx.
 
#1,013
jimfist said:
Most of the stuff is pretty expensive, and hardware with built-in IRs, or ones that allow you to make or load custom IRs are few and far between:

- 2 Notes Torpedo C.A.B/Live/VB101: the C.A.B is the least expensive, but has a great set of features for cabinet, mic, mic placement, power amp tube modeling, etc., for a little over $500US for the C.A.B., more for the other units.

- Fractal Audio Systems AxeFx standard/Ultra/AxeFxII: These are fully blown all-in-one preamp effects processors with cabinet emulation. Standard/Ultra versions are powerful, but now discontinued, and less elegant than the newer AxeFxII, which has USB, and a broader feature set, more stock bass cab models, and the ability for the user to capture their own custom IRs. AFXII $2200US

- Kemper Profiling Amp: just as it says, it profiles actual amplifiers (amp/and cabinet) using a proprietary capture scheme. This is generally viewed as an all-in-one system, and I'm not so sure you'd get much good use from this PURELY for just cabinet emulation. It seems implicit that you'd also want to "bake in" the amp modeling as well. $1800+US

Otherwise, there is a gamut of amp modelers with cabinets "baked" into the amp models (ZOOM, Line 6, Boss, etc.), which have limited application with respect to high quality IRs, though all of them use some sort of impulse response for their cabinet simulations. I use the ZOOM B3 all the time, even though I have the AxeFx units. When finances permit, I'll be exploring the 2 Notes C.A.B. as an intermediate interface bridging the gap between the lowly Zoom and the ultra fancy AxeFx.
Click to expand...

IMO, you're talking about stuff here that costs more than a really nice bass rig, just to give a feed to a soundguy so he has a slightly less chance of screwing up, though he could still screw it up royally...might just mean twisting 2 knobs instead of one. ;)

Doesn't matter how great of stuff you have or don't have, the guy on the other end can still make it sound glorious, or more like a steaming pile, in a moments notice. :)
 
#1,014
will33 said:
IMO, you're talking about stuff here that costs more than a really nice bass rig, just to give a feed to a soundguy so he has a slightly less chance of screwing up, though he could still screw it up royally...might just mean twisting 2 knobs instead of one. ;)

Doesn't matter how great of stuff you have or don't have, the guy on the other end can still make it sound glorious, or more like a steaming pile, in a moments notice. :)
Click to expand...

The moral being: Don't even try. Just get a Squier P Bass and an Acoustic combo amp and let the sound guy screw you with your pants on ;)

/sarcasm
 
#1,015
will33 said:
IMO, you're talking about stuff here that costs more than a really nice bass rig, just to give a feed to a soundguy so he has a slightly less chance of screwing up, though he could still screw it up royally...might just mean twisting 2 knobs instead of one. ;)

Doesn't matter how great of stuff you have or don't have, the guy on the other end can still make it sound glorious, or more like a steaming pile, in a moments notice. :)
Click to expand...
At least you'd get a fighting chance of making it sound like what you want. I'm not a big believer in throwing big money at tone but sometimes it works.
 
#1,019
will33 said:
IMO, you're talking about stuff here that costs more than a really nice bass rig, just to give a feed to a soundguy so he has a slightly less chance of screwing up, though he could still screw it up royally...might just mean twisting 2 knobs instead of one. ;)

Doesn't matter how great of stuff you have or don't have, the guy on the other end can still make it sound glorious, or more like a steaming pile, in a moments notice. :)
Click to expand...

Yes, most of what I listed is pricey, and most who use the Axefx or Kemper are using them as full, digitally modeled replacements for their live rigs: their stomps, rack fx, and preamps - not just solely for the cabinet emulation. However the 2 Notes C.A.B. is priced comparable to a high end mic or tube direct box....certainly not prohibitive for someone with a real need.

Current state of affairs of practical use of *specifically*IR technology is expensive and scarce. I've mentioned that a couple times in my posts. It's not ideal, and it's not for everyone. It is, IMO, an option that professionals or those with very specific needs can take advantage of. I personally like the idea of carrying around the tone of an SVT head and well mic'd SVT 8x10 cabinet in one trip from my sub compact vehicle. That has value for me. If you don't have the need, the money, or desire to explore IR technology, then don't. It's just another option that is starting to gain steam, and price vs functionality and quality will only get more attractive as time goes on.

I do realize that digital emulation is not always favorably viewed amongst guitarists and bassists. I get that. I'm not a "one or the other" type of musican. There is room for all of the technology, whether it be old school or cutting edge. Each has its benefits and downsides, and I'm a fan of ALL of it. And isn't that what this thread is about, really? How does one get their really expensive bass rig's tone to translate to FOH better/more easily/without resistance from the sound tech? Well, I'm providing an option, and an option that is being exploited by professionals every day of the week. Take a look if you're interested. If you're not....don't. ;-)
 
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