Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[P-oddz]

I've had may gigs without a soundman. I've never seen a soundman gig without a band.

You get what I'm saying. I didn't mean it literally every time.
It's all dependent on the size/place.

 

[gurensan]

The soundman is working for whoever pays his salary. That is _NOT_ you, (assuming the house soundman). The soundman gets his/her check from the venue manager. You pay the venue. The venue pays the soundman. Get it?

Throwing out the possible knowledge, experience and desires of the guy on the stage simply because of where a paycheck comes from is never, and has never, been a defensible position. We musicians are not the only ones who need to be civil about our positions and work with what we have. The sound man must, as well. Sound men are just as replaceable as the venues we play in. Just ask the ex-owners of any club anyone has played in that isn't there anymore.

Recording engineers spend years of their lives learning to make things work on a record. Running sound is just the live version of the same job. You wouldn't work with a recording engineer who was a dick any more than you should put up with a sound man who is (or bass player, for that matter).

 

[BurningSkies]

The soundman is working for whoever pays his salary. That is _NOT_ you, (assuming the house soundman). The soundman gets his/her check from the venue manager. You pay the venue. The venue pays the soundman. Get it?

Actually, a lot of the clubs, bars and places we play say upfront: "Soundman gets paid x dollars from door...", which is us paying him, since we often set door price, ticket price, etc. Much of the time we're also sitting at the door to collect or monitor to make sure there's no skimming going on. Or, in some places where we bring sound or soundman, he's getting x dollars from door. Which again is us paying him.

I'll assume that any venue that wants us to play wants us to sound like what they've heard on any recording that we use to represent ourselves and/or any other venue that they may have seen us play in the past (often gig calls come from people seeing us at other places) in which case, having a sound man who decides to disregard the band's sound in honor of streamlining his setup or because he thinks he's a producer is only robbing the house of what we actually do.

Now, if we're on a group bill or a festival or a situation where we've been invited to open for a big name, we're happy to work with whatever...but in 'big gig' situations, I've found that sound usually wants to play on the "same team". Of course I hedge all my bets by having a preamp and DI that sounds like I want it to sound and presents the best possible chance of FOH not to get up to much funniness. THAT has worked tremendously well in keeping all parties happy.

 

[monkeyfinger]

I don't think we disagree. The soundman is there to assist in the technical aspects of helping the venue achieve its goals. For some venues, the goal is to have the most pristine sound possible, for others it is to sell beer to as many college kids as possible. My point is that the soundman is paid by the venue. The venue sets the tone, direction and priorities for the soundman. IME, often the last thing the venue cares about is having the most awesome sound. They want good enough to sell beer. Any attempt in these places at awesome sound is because the soundman likes doing a good job. So when a kid comes in an thinks that I should 'cater to him', I will try to listen and weigh his needs against the needs of the house. Were his needs conflicts with the house needs, the house wins. Otherwise I will do my best to help the musician achieve his goal, but this is because I want to, not because the house expects me to.

With all due respect, what does that have to do with anything? Should a soundman phone it in just because the band doesn't pay them directly? I'll admit that there are a lot of beginner bands who could use some advice from a good soundman, but ignoring what the band wants in favor of expediency just because the band doesn't pay them directly isn't the way to make a good show that makes people want to return to the venue. And whether or not the band pays directly or not, they are still the reason their fans come to the bars to see them, and their ideas should at least be respected to a degree. Can them if they play too loud, let them know if they're putting out signals that make it hard to mix them, but don't cut their nuts off just because they're too lazy to unplug one DI and plug in a better DI or a mic.

 

[JimmyM]

The better the band sounds, the more drinks the bar sells.

 

[Mark Nye]

I hate to pile on the FOH guys, but I can say without fail that I have never - not once - had a competent sound man give me a hard time about micing my rig (regardless of where the subs were located - which I agree is a bogus excuse designed to counter a bassist's argument). The only ones who have ever hassled me are either subpar or lazy. YMMV and all that disclaimer jazz, but that's my experience.

That said, I try to be flexible. If the FOH guy insists on a DI, and isn't a jerk about it, my compromise is to send him the post-EQ signal from my Streamliner 900 (which, BTW, I get a ton of compliments on from those who have used it).

To the OP, you've got the option to carry your mic of choice. I certainly do. That way you can counter the "I don't have a good mic for bass" excuse. And if you also carry a roll of gaffer's tape, with a little ingenuity, you can "flop-n-drop" said mic over the cab like guitarists do with e609s and the like to counter the "subs under the stage" excuse.

 

[monkeyfinger]

I agree. But I have worked the boards in venues where the subs are all blown, 8 of 24 channels are out, and the monitors are shot. But the guy sells beer. What can I say?

 

[monkeyfinger]

Yes. The point here is that you are prepared. That is key. This is not like showing up for rehearsal where you just have to plug your bass into an amp. This is a live show. I think it would benefit all performing musicians to know what needs to be done in a live show and how to best support that in a wide variety of situation.

I hate to pile on the FOH guys, but I can say without fail that I have never - not once - had a competent sound man give me a hard time about micing my rig (regardless of where the subs were located - which I agree is a bogus excuse designed to counter a bassist's argument). The only ones who have ever hassled me are either subpar or lazy. YMMV and all that disclaimer jazz, but that's my experience.

That said, I try to be flexible. If the FOH guy insists on a DI, and isn't a jerk about it, my compromise is to send him the post-EQ signal from my Streamliner 900 (which, BTW, I get a ton of compliments on from those who have used it).

To the OP, you've got the option to carry your mic of choice. I certainly do. That way you can counter the "I don't have a good mic for bass" excuse. And if you also carry a roll of gaffer's tape, with a little ingenuity, you can "flop-n-drop" said mic over the cab like guitarists do with e609s and the like to counter the "subs under the stage" excuse.

 

[Orpheus55]

I've used my SWR WorkingPro 12 combo as a stage monitor and a Livewire DI opening for innumerable 60s oldies bands in huge outdoor venues and somehow it usually works fine. As long as I can hear myself, I'm good. But that's just me.

 

[Nashrakh]

The better the band sounds, the more drinks the bar sells.

You mean, the more drinks the bar sells the better the band sounds.

 

[Jeff Scott]

The better the band sounds, the more drinks the bar sells.

You mean, the more drinks the bar sells the better the band sounds.

THE classic Catch 22!

 

[Signs]

The better the band sounds, the more drinks the bar sells.

Where's the like button?!!!

 

[jimfist]

Impulse Responses....best of all worlds = your cabinet as mic'd in a DI form that is sound grunt friendly.

Two-notes Torpedo
Fractal Audio System AxeFx
Kemper Profiling Amp
Digitech GSP1101

 

[Downunderwonder]

95% of the time sound guys don't have a good choice of mics though. Normally its a pile of 57's, a pile of 58's, and drum mics. Similarly they rarely have nice DI boxes either.

An AKG P2 costs $100 . Get your own, have it set to go, on stand. Have your cables plugged into amp, rolled on top of your amp, ready to plug into cab etc when you hit the stage, you should have the soundman's lead out of the bass DI and into your mic before he's even got to you.

Remember that mic is live and un levelled, position the mic first! Do not play until FOH knows what's up.

 

[Fat Steve]

With my PF350, I run all my time based effects through the effects loop, so the sound engineer gets my post EQ/loop DI signal off of the head. No mics, no external DI's, just the PF350. I've had a couple try to run me straight into their external DI, but I wont do it. Then again, I'm playing DB and around here at least the sound engineers seem to be intimidated by them, so they tend to defer to my advice. Never have been miced since I switched to bass from guitar a couple years back.

 

[Jaromir]

[/QUOTE]
My first inclination is to buy a beta 52 and when a soundman asks me where my DI is to point to the mic.

Buy a gun instead.

 

[Lorenzini]

Here's how I look at it, and what I do:

I have a PRE DI, and a POST DI.

Pre is straight to the DI, POST is after my preamp, FX, amp DI, etc., so it basically is the signal directly before the cabinet.
My Post varies with FX, etc., but always has A) Aguilar AG500 SC and B) dbx 160x compressed signal.
The soundman may mix and match as he pleases, but since my mixer enjoys my sound, he uses roughly 75% post and 25% pre.
If I was meeting a new FOH mixer every night, I'd send him my post sound and call it a day.

I used to mic my cab. It's really a pointless endeavor IMO.

Hope this helps.

 

[lfmn16]

I agree. But I have worked the boards in venues where the subs are all blown, 8 of 24 channels are out, and the monitors are shot. But the guy sells beer. What can I say?

Some clubs make money in spite of their shortcomings.

 

[ptooner]

That's the clearest explanation of this particular problem that I have ever heard of. Yes, I run sound as well as playing bass also.

 

[slade]

my thoughts-

I have a rig that sounds how I hear my bass in my head. That rig is (mostly) capable of reproducing my tone live and can handle the FOH if necessary in most cases.

Luckily I've played a bunch of the best clubs and venues on the west coast- I've seen every approach by sound men regarding the bass. I typically find DI as the go to by most. Sweet- nice clean bass signal headed straight to the pa is what crosses my mind. I tell the sound guy what I'm aiming for with my tone and let go of the control freak side of things and hope he respects my hopes. All of the bigger stages I've played (festivals, stadium style gigs) are all magnifying a clean (di) signal- sometimes mic'd but not typically. Some of the best bass tone I've had though is the house rig that is DI'd- say an SVTCL into and 810 that never moves and gets used all night every night (El Rey Theatre in LA comes to mind). Sound guy knows the rig, makes it sound great every night, etc. Stage sound is awesome with the 810 kicking, house sound is insane with the DI going into a top notch house PA. This is of course just my real world experience.

In the studio I always shoot for DI and mics mixed- hopefully they also run my signal through a bad ass UA or Avalon rig, into a fully analog board. I've been really lucky to work with bad ass producers- I'll bring my bass and tuner typically. Always have been impressed with my tone on record, again- good gear and producers.

If you think that your amazing amp/cab tone is going to get mic'd at a bar gig, and re-produced exactly by the sound guy through the mains I'll give you a 1 in 10 chance. As a gigging pro I always go with DI- I at least know sound guy has a clean signal to mess up, and not a weak mic signal due to bad mic placement, cab placement etc.
As a long time producer (amateur) I always have a direct bass signal- clean, strong, easy to mold to the players wants etc. I think of house sound the same. This of course assumes you're trusting the sound man, but isn't the whole argument mute if you don't? Give him great tone and he can F it up. Give him ****** tone and you can blame him.

My only advise is to trust him as much as you can and let go of it- chances are that you're a weekend warrior or slightly paid pro, and that you're never going to sound out front how you do in your dreams. Play your ass off and enjoy your stage time….