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Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

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#141
I don't have a dog in this fight, but do have some observations from the FOH point of view.

Unless the bassist is Geddy Lee, he is not the center of the universe.
He is one of many bassists on that stage sometime during that show.
If the bassist behaves like a big diva in a small venue, he will be treated accordingly.
He does not pay the sound man's salary, so skip the Leona Helmsley routine.

The sound man's primary responsibility is changing acts quickly, and seeing that they make noise.
The big clubs tone down the opening acts and give maximum PA noise and quality to the headliner.
If you don't like it, don't play there. Deal with it.

The sound man uses the MUTE button to deal with clods who show up with monster rigs and refuse to turn them down.
"It's my tone, man" is what I've heard time and again.
Fine. Turn your rig facing the back of the stage and I'll mic it.
The diva does not accept this offer. MUTE is engaged.

Understand the futility of trying to mic and balance a 3-way speaker system.
When the mic is placed far enough away to catch all three drivers, it also catches a ton of stage wash.
Save it for the studio.

The solutions posted above are excellent.
Bring your own solutions to your gig. Be prepared. Be easy. Be simple. Be civil.
Buy a quality wireless so you can stand at FOH and discuss your tone.
 
#142
shaft311 said:
:rollno:

You got it man.. just volume up and down.
Click to expand...


I said "make it work for the room", too, didn't I? And that really is all there is to it so whether or not it's DI or mic or both is actually the decision of the PLAYER because it is his instrument, his sound and his effing decision what all that sounds like in the music. If the sound man likes a different sound better then maybe he should form a band himself. I'm pretty sure you wanted to misunderstand me though...
 
#143
"Make it work for the room" is what's important. I have my own sound, but I make adjustments for the room in settings where my rig IS the FOH. I expect a sound man to do the same, but not to 'produce' my tone or the band's tone. A good soundman pays attention to what the band is supposed to sound like and what the band wants to sound like and translates that to the space out front. What I don't expect is a soundman to second guess the basics of your (or your band's) tonal choices. Given free reign of my signal, I've heard plenty of people make VERY poor choices of what they think I should sound like out front, given the genre I play in.
 
#145
bgavin said:
I don't have a dog in this fight, but do have some observations from the FOH point of view.

Unless the bassist is Geddy Lee, he is not the center of the universe.
He is one of many bassists on that stage sometime during that show.
If the bassist behaves like a big diva in a small venue, he will be treated accordingly.
He does not pay the sound man's salary, so skip the Leona Helmsley routine.
Click to expand...
You don't know that.

The sound man's primary responsibility is changing acts quickly, and seeing that they make noise.
The big clubs tone down the opening acts and give maximum PA noise and quality to the headliner.
If you don't like it, don't play there. Deal with it.
Click to expand...
I don't do shows like that. If there is a multi-act show we play on, our band is usually playing with the headliner or we're the headliner. And on a lot of them, we pay the soundman directly. So I recommend they listen to us if they want repeat work. And if we're not the headliner or paying the soundman ourselves, we act accordingly and roll with it until it either ruins the show or makes it impossible for us to work. Then we rat him out to the person paying him.

The sound man uses the MUTE button to deal with clods who show up with monster rigs and refuse to turn them down.
"It's my tone, man" is what I've heard time and again.
Fine. Turn your rig facing the back of the stage and I'll mic it.
The diva does not accept this offer. MUTE is engaged.
Click to expand...
Fine by me. Honestly, most of the time, I'm just as happy that way and I think it sounds as good or better than the PA. But I NEVER play too loud for the room or the band. If I find out I am, I ALWAYS turn it down till it's mixed well.

Understand the futility of trying to mic and balance a 3-way speaker system.
When the mic is placed far enough away to catch all three drivers, it also catches a ton of stage wash.
Save it for the studio.
Click to expand...
Like I said earlier, most folks with 3-way systems aren't interested in micing a cab anyway.

The solutions posted above are excellent.
Bring your own solutions to your gig. Be prepared. Be easy. Be simple. Be civil.
Buy a quality wireless so you can stand at FOH and discuss your tone.[/QUOTE]
That's for sure. I'm always civil until the moment we realize the soundman's about to screw us. Then I'm civil at first, and if I don't get anywhere, then I'm not so civil.

And it isn't about me, either. If I had a dollar for every time I told a soundman that I was too loud in the PA, I'd likely have a few hundred bucks.
 
#146
I'm sick of the standpoint that bands should have to bow down to the soundguy, and I don't agree that just because there are a number of bassists playing that night that he should be entitled to not care about them OR make them do whatever he wants.

Just because you do something over and over at your job, does that mean it's OK to half ass it? No. If you start half assing stuff, you get fired. Sound guys get paid to make a band sound good. If the bassist asks to be mic'd, the sound guy should understand that the bassist probably knows what he's talking about, just like the bassist should understand the soundguy knows what he's talking about. There should be mutual respect and understanding. Too often I've played gigs where the band, who works tirelessly rehearsing for a gig, is thrown off by a bad and lazy sound guy with an attitude of "don't tell me how to do my job."
The only reason (in most situations) the sound guy is even getting paid is because the bands were booked at the venue he works at, and worked hard to promote and bring in the crowd that pays the cover that in turn pays the sound man.

Even at your every day, run of the mill gigs that happen every weekend, a soundman should cater to the bands. That's what he's paid to do, and typically makes more money than the bands.
 
#147
Jimmy, you are a working professional.
There is no need to defend yourself.

The vast majority of TB members reading this post do not play your size of venues.
Many of their venues are pay-to-play, with ticket quotas, etc.
These bands are paid diddly-squat and do not pay the sound man's salary.

Mix problems come from the divas and the kids, not the pros.
 
#149
the soundman can have the DI out on my channelstrip, that´s enough for me.

except when i´m playing with my board and rig, the soundguy will not WANT me to go DI then (because it doesn´t work at all with the band sound)
 
#150
I'm look like I'm miked, well I am miked, I always ask for two channels one for DI (sound man loves this) and one for mike on cab. I like them eq'ed both at noon with medium low gain to start and I like the mike channel to be set abt 10 % more than the DI channel on the board. But like Two Fingers I cheat because I am sending speaker level thru the DI, so basically I have two channels of awesomeness going on and the sound guy is pulling his hair out trying to figure out what channel is more awesome.
 
#151
Do you pay the soundman? Are you responsible for hiring or firing of the soundman? Do you tip the soundman?

mancefine said:
I'm sick of the standpoint that bands should have to bow down to the soundguy, and I don't agree that just because there are a number of bassists playing that night that he should be entitled to not care about them OR make them do whatever he wants.

Just because you do something over and over at your job, does that mean it's OK to half ass it? No. If you start half assing stuff, you get fired. Sound guys get paid to make a band sound good. If the bassist asks to be mic'd, the sound guy should understand that the bassist probably knows what he's talking about, just like the bassist should understand the soundguy knows what he's talking about. There should be mutual respect and understanding. Too often I've played gigs where the band, who works tirelessly rehearsing for a gig, is thrown off by a bad and lazy sound guy with an attitude of "don't tell me how to do my job."
The only reason (in most situations) the sound guy is even getting paid is because the bands were booked at the venue he works at, and worked hard to promote and bring in the crowd that pays the cover that in turn pays the sound man.

Even at your every day, run of the mill gigs that happen every weekend, a soundman should cater to the bands. That's what he's paid to do, and typically makes more money than the bands.
Click to expand...
 
#152
bgavin said:
Jimmy, you are a working professional.
There is no need to defend yourself.

The vast majority of TB members reading this post do not play your size of venues.
Many of their venues are pay-to-play, with ticket quotas, etc.
These bands are paid diddly-squat and do not pay the sound man's salary.

Mix problems come from the divas and the kids, not the pros.
Click to expand...

Even if you pay to play I would argue that you ARE paying the sound guys salary. You did the leg work that brought the paying crowd that in turn pays his salary. My point above was that some soundmen seem to have the only job I've ever heard of where they can tell their "clientale" aka the bands to stick it where the sun don't shine when they have a request and not get fired.
 
#155
I guess I don't get it. The soundman wouldn't have a job if it weren't for the bands. I guess I don't play at "pay to play" venues. I play at venues that book my band, we promote, we bring a crowd that makes them money to pay their overhead, which includes the soundman, and we usaully get whatevers left.
 
#156
BFunk said:
Do you pay the soundman? Are you responsible for hiring or firing of the soundman? Do you tip the soundman?
Click to expand...
With all due respect, what does that have to do with anything? Should a soundman phone it in just because the band doesn't pay them directly? I'll admit that there are a lot of beginner bands who could use some advice from a good soundman, but ignoring what the band wants in favor of expediency just because the band doesn't pay them directly isn't the way to make a good show that makes people want to return to the venue. And whether or not the band pays directly or not, they are still the reason their fans come to the bars to see them, and their ideas should at least be respected to a degree. Can them if they play too loud, let them know if they're putting out signals that make it hard to mix them, but don't cut their nuts off just because they're too lazy to unplug one DI and plug in a better DI or a mic.
 
#157
mancefine said:
The only reason (in most situations) the sound guy is even getting paid is because the bands were booked at the venue he works at, and worked hard to promote and bring in the crowd that pays the cover that in turn pays the sound man.

Even at your every day, run of the mill gigs that happen every weekend, a soundman should cater to the bands. That's what he's paid to do, and typically makes more money than the bands.
Click to expand...

Agreed with this sentiment.
The sound guy gets a guaranteed cut of what the bands bring in (in normal bar gig situations). Trying to accomplish what the band wants sonically AND making a smooth show is his job for the night. The musicians job is dual as well - bring in a crowd, and put on a good show. If the sound guy has a reasonable excuse why it CAN'T be accomplished (small stage, feedback, etc), that should be taken into account by the musician and not treated like he's just a lazy guy. That's where bass players can learn a thing or two about microphones, monitors, etc. But if it's just a matter of shaving off a minute or two to plug you DI as opposed to setting up a mic, or automatically thinking the bass player has no clue about tone - then to me that is a crappy excuse and worthy of being scorned by the musician.

It's about mutual respect. Neither would have a gig without the other.
 
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