Why is it hard to keep rhythm when playing alone?

[Sparkl]

Here at TB, we have lots of various levels musicians/bass players.
And we start "sharing" our experience without any regard to those specific bass players.
Let's say, if you have a Pro bass player (with 30 years of solid experience) who needs to play Suzi Quatro's, "Stumblin' In".
How much should that bass player practice with the Metronome that song in order to be able to play it live or record in the studio?
What if we have a brand new amateur bass player who've just picked up the bass?

Well with age comes experience but not necessarily. Yes, those of us who have lots of years of bass playing experience and are playing music professionally don't have to think about the rhythm really. You just play it and forget about it.

Beginners and intermediates have to practice it of course. Doesn't mean that the rest of us never practices with a metronome. I use it all the time, from playing scales to practicing some phrases.

But when I transcribe a bass solo, for example Paul Chambers Dear Old Stockholm upright bass solo I never practice the transcription on a metronome. Always either solo or with a play along (the actual track). Why? Because the actual track contains a lot more useful information then just tempo alone. You have articulation, feel of the tune, dynamics, other instruments phrasing etc etc. This is how you get the whole package. With just using the metronome, you isolate yourself.

Well honestly, this stuff is actually very hard to explain. As a bass teacher myself, explaining rhythm is one of the hardest things. Especially when a student comes and asks me "hey, what is a triplet?". It is hard as it is to just explain a triplet from scratch from example, let alone when the student doesn't get it right away and you have to really work for his understanding and this represents 80% of all beginner students really.

My whole point I guess is that to each his own. You will not find an universal practice routine for everybody. You have to make your own routine. My personal approach to it always was to combine but even more to LISTEN to tunes and get a tempo and groove feel from there. My tempo or rhythm practicing routine probably consists of 80% listening and 20% of using metronome. Or even less. Worked for me enough so that my time keeping and grooving based on it appealed to many international professional musicians with which I played/still play.

Might work for you, might not.

 

[Sparkl]

I've heard Carol Kaye say she had a lot of timing issues when she first started playing professionally, and that she cured them with metronome work.

For me, the way I work on it is to use a metronome that can mute certain bars. So you play your groove or riff or whatever, with 1 measure of click and 3 measures off, or some combination. It really builds your sense of time. So if you can do a bunch of syncopated lines with the click off and still hit the one when it comes back around, then you prolly have solid time.

Exactly. This is the way I personally really support and always recommend my students to start practicing like this ASAP. It is one of the ultimate exercises you can practice with a metronome.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Doesn't mean that the rest of us never practices with a metronome. I use it all the time, from playing scales to practicing some phrases.

Thanks for a very polite answer to my "more emotional" question.
N.B. To all TB members.
As long as I can recall/from my experience, true Musicians do not(!!!) start arguing about Music. They just express their opinion. True Musicians do not force(!!!) their beliefs on other musicians(!!!), etc...

Once again. Practicing with the Metronome only HELPS you as a bass player/Musician. I will never ever understand how playing scales at 50BPM with the Metronome could endanger the musician's "musicality".

the actual track contains a lot more useful information then just tempo alone. You have articulation, feel of the tune, dynamics, other instruments phrasing etc etc.

For me, music starts with Mood, Character, Attitude, etc...
Just a few "jazz language devices" from Jerry Bergonzi's book.

But when I transcribe a bass solo, for example Paul Chambers Dear Old Stockholm upright bass solo I never practice the transcription on a metronome.

Just a note.
Any transcription would/should be squeezed into some kind of time signature! What's more, unless you have some special instructions(!!!), the comping/backing band will play its comping/rhythmic part by adhering to that given tempo.
You don't need to practice a/any solo with the metronome in order to just focus on all those melodic-rhythmic devices, but...
As soon as you decide to play that solo with the comping band, you'll be forced to, more or less, comply with those rhythmic "constraints", unless there are some special instructions(!!!) per arranger, or the conductor, etc...

You have to make your own routine. My personal approach to it always was to combine but even more to LISTEN to tunes and get a tempo and groove feel from there. My tempo or rhythm practicing routine probably consists of 80% listening and 20% of using metronome. Or even less.

As I've mentioned so many times before, I totally understand and accept a/any "personal approach to a practicing routine!".
I don't understand that mean attack on the use of the Metronome.

 

[Bigbri]

Sorry for the late response.

Well. What you are saying is true of course but it doesn't apply to the general way of acquiring your own internal clock in general.

Generally on a professional scale of things, you don't follow anyone. You are LISTENING to everybody though. Following someone means that you personally aren't really sure about how to execute something and are relying on someone else to do it for you so you can tag along with it.

This works in general for certain styles of music or for so called "amateur" sunday playing. If you want to become a sought after bass player yourself though, you need to improve your own internal clock and be able to play independently from everyone else.

Let me give you an example. The drummer starts to play in a 5 over 4 cross rhythm. Now if you tag along with him, you will surely loose the one. How are you supposed to play your 4/4 line stable if you don't realize what's going on?

Yes, playing with a metronome is of course the way to go. BUT (!) I would expand this further and say that practicing with a metronome by purely setting it to tick on every beat only gets you so far. Truth is, there is not a single musician on this planet that keeps his timing so strict that he always stays on that tick unless he plays on a click. Therefore what people mostly do by practicing with a metronome is relying on the click rather than learning to also listen to your surroundings to be able to adapt to different rhythms.

Especially in jazz for example, you have numerous tunes from the golden eras of jazz, played by top cats and you will frequently realize their tempo of the tune differs in a major way if you compare the start or the end of a tune. Doesn't mean these cats didn't have their internal clock figured out it only shows that tempo can sometimes also have a certain dynamic increase or decrease of its tempo throughout the whole tune. Now imagine someone being strictly taught to follow the metronome trying to play along a band like this. It would probably sound chaotic.

Therefore and most of all, you have to be a good listener. I would say that a great way of actually practicing your tempo with a metronome would be to set your metronome along with a form of a tune you are practicing.

Meaning, that, for example if you are practicing a 12 bar blues (jazz blues for example), you set your metronome to actually tick for the first 2 bars and then set it so that it doesn't tick at all for the rest 10 bars. This way you don't "learn" to rely on the metronome tick but merely use it as a reminder of your initial tempo to actually see how far from it you are when you play through one chorus. This is a very powerful practicing routine as you will get a great time feel in a long run but still will be able to play rhythm musically and not in a "synthetic way", which playing purely through a metronome actually is. It will also greatly improve your awareness of bars in the tune which is way more important than basically anything else if you really want to be a rhythm/tempo beast.

To further prove my point: Try to record a 16th note lick in your Logic Pro for example and quantise the line into a pure 16th feel. It will sound totally synthetic. Meaning there is more to rhythm than just pure mathematics and strict time space division.

I just have a regular metronome Do I need to get a new one that will be quiet for that last 10 bars?

 

[Spin Doctor]

I just have a regular metronome Do I need to get a new one that will be quiet for that last 10 bars?

I wouldn't. Besides 10 bars of silence is way too much for practgice anyway.

 

[Nashrakh]

You could also try any notation software you want and program as many bars as you want. Try MuseScore, for example. No need for a new metronome or any other purchase.

As long as I can recall/from my experience, true Musicians do not(!!!) start arguing about Music. They just express their opinion. True Musicians do not force(!!!) their beliefs on other musicians(!!!), etc...

Interesting opinion - one problem though. What is a true musician and who decides who gets to carry that dignified title?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

What is a true musician and who decides who gets to carry that dignified title?

... Those musicians who don't argue about Music! drool

 

[Bigbri]

You could also try any notation software you want and program as many bars as you want. Try MuseScore, for example. No need for a new metronome or any other purchase.


Interesting opinion - one problem though. What is a true musician and who decides who gets to carry that dignified title?

"True musicians?"

 

[Whousedtoplay]

What is a true musician?

It's a very good question, but posted in a very wrong thread about the Metronome use.

Please, start a new thread and read (if any) the comments from the thread.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

My point here is that if you played with these guys with your in-ear click you would still get out of sync. Hence, you need to listen to the surroundings more than relying purely on metronome. Use the metronome as a practicing tool, but then ditch it asap unless the whole band plays on a click.

To tell you the truth, I've had more(!) issues when I played without a click then I've played with the click.
The most important thing while playing with the click - it eliminated any kind of "bickering" among band's musicians that this or that musician is rushing or dragging, etc...
Also, I'm very picky about the correct tempo. Your nuanced groove, articulation is directly linked to the song's tempo (it's just me); therefore, by speeding up a/any song would change(!!!) that important "feel"/"micro-feel."

And here is my deeply-rooted personal opinion - I have never ever experienced any "stifling"/"suffocating" effects of playing with the click!

N.B. My comments are only(!) about the Groove(!)-based music. In Classical Music, there are different requirements.


What's more.
The click was only for the drummer. The rest of the band has never ever heard any click.
Is it about the drummer?
Maybe, I was just lucky to play with good drummers?

You are a musician. When you play on stage, you communicate (it could be visually) with the drummer.
If that drummer is totally/completely comfortable playing with the click, then how could that kind of drumming stop you from listening to your surroundings, which is a VERY(!!!) important point.
How could that kind of drumming degrade your musicianship?

I truly do NOT(!!!) understand where that myth of "repressive" click comes from.

On one hand, we are told by some nice and experienced TB members, "I'd always indicate to my drummer when the drummer starts rushing".
On the other hand, I was told it's OK when the band suddenly starts rushing - unexpectedly, unpredictably, unplanned, etc...
Hey, let's play Chorus at a slightly faster tempo" - that's the idea by the composer, arranger, the BL, etc...
No problem.
What if we play the sax solo at 1.5 the original tempo. I have no issues.
That's the idea, but...
I still don't know where that "you-hurting-me-click" comes from.

I've played with and without a click. I don't care, unless I start noticing some "issues" with the drummer that could start distracting me from caring about Music.

How much attention do you pay to your surrounding (with all those numerous nuances) if your though is just about the "unruly" drummer?

 

[Sparkl]

Thanks for a very polite answer to my "more emotional" question.
N.B. To all TB members.
As long as I can recall/from my experience, true Musicians do not(!!!) start arguing about Music. They just express their opinion. True Musicians do not force(!!!) their beliefs on other musicians(!!!), etc...

Once again. Practicing with the Metronome only HELPS you as a bass player/Musician. I will never ever understand how playing scales at 50BPM with the Metronome could endanger the musician's "musicality".



For me, music starts with Mood, Character, Attitude, etc...
Just a few "jazz language devices" from Jerry Bergonzi's book.

View attachment 1171236 View attachment 1171237 View attachment 1171238 View attachment 1171239


Just a note.
Any transcription would/should be squeezed into some kind of time signature! What's more, unless you have some special instructions(!!!), the comping/backing band will play its comping/rhythmic part by adhering to that given tempo.
You don't need to practice a/any solo with the metronome in order to just focus on all those melodic-rhythmic devices, but...
As soon as you decide to play that solo with the comping band, you'll be forced to, more or less, comply with those rhythmic "constraints", unless there are some special instructions(!!!) per arranger, or the conductor, etc...



As I've mentioned so many times before, I totally understand and accept a/any "personal approach to a practicing routine!".
I don't understand that mean attack on the use of the Metronome.

Thanks for understanding

Honestly, I agree with you. Maybe my message isn't projected to the public as clearly, I am not a native english speaker after all

All I want to say is that there are many exercises one can make with a metronome and that the metronome is more of a tool rather than a subject to completely rely on. The first time you would end up playing without a click, it would put you out of your comfort zone and that's "bad for business" if you catch my meaning

P.s.: and to clarify, I am not disregarding the metronome in any way. As I said, a metronome is a way to go, you just need to explore certain ways to really tailor the metronome usage to your benefit. Many people practice with the metronome for years and they still have a weak internal time clock without it since they learned to rely on the metronome instead of absorbing it in their mind. Doesn't mean they necessarily suck at time keeping, they just don't practice correctly.

 

[Sparkl]

I just have a regular metronome Do I need to get a new one that will be quiet for that last 10 bars?

You can do this in any audio software, like musescore as someone suggested.

 

[Sparkl]

I wouldn't. Besides 10 bars of silence is way too much for practgice anyway.

It is not. Depends on what level you currently are though. I can tell you that after I started practicing this way cca 5 years ago, I realized that my actual time keeping wasn't really what I thought it could be.

Also, check out victor wootens suggestions about how to practice with a metronome. A genious approach and amazingly hard to pull off at the end.

 

[Spin Doctor]

It is not. Depends on what level you currently are though. I can tell you that after I started practicing this way cca 5 years ago, I realized that my actual time keeping wasn't really what I thought it could be.

Also, check out victor wootens suggestions about how to practice with a metronome. A genious approach and amazingly hard to pull off at the end.

To each his own. I generally blank out maybe 6 out of 8 measures at the most, but I'm not going to spend any time trying to keep track of 10 blank measures. I don't think all that is necessary. Not for me anyway...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

As I said, a metronome is a way to go, you just need to explore certain ways to really tailor the metronome usage to your benefit.

Welcome back.
I've thought we lost you in that "metronome-is-bad" mess.

they learned to rely on the metronome instead of absorbing it in their mind.

the metronome is more of a tool rather than a subject to completely rely on. The first time you would end up playing without a click, it would put you out of your comfort zone

First of all, thanks for expressing an interesting idea as
"Relying too much on the Metronome (as your friend)" could get you in the uncomfortable zone". (Like some bad addiction.)
Your statement is much better than "You don't need the metronome".

I don't have an answer but I have a few questions.

Let's say, we have a drummer playing a groovy song/composition with the click. That drummer is totally comfortable playing with the click and is able to express all the necessary dynamic, rhythmic (pocket), etc..., nuances for that drum pattern, mixed with "cool" and rhythmic-wise properly articulated drum fills, etc... - while having the "close-to-perfect" timing. If you record the drummer, you won't find any (distractive) rhythmic mistakes in each and every measure(!).
Just a very cool drum line/pattern.

(I tend to discern between playing along with the click/metronome and a "properly-nuanced-wise" dynamically-articulated one measure/bar at a time! I does me(!) no good to play with the metronome but produce only some "nebulous chaos".)

What are the chances that the drummer is going to "collapse" without a click/metronome track?

 

[Bigbassguy]

I always use a metronome as a practice tool, not with a band. Helps to develop your internal time relative to the music you are working on.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm always talking too much. We are all musicians.
In my younger days, I was hooked on Shakatak, Incognito, Mezzoforte, George Duke(!!!), etc...
Let's just listen to the same song by the Great George Duke, "A Brazilian Love Affair" with the bass line full of short notes that need to be carefully crafted into the song's rhythmic texture.

N.B. My posting is about
a. "We hear what we want and what we CAN hear".
b. "Groove is more than just a theoretical term".
c. "The Importance of the metronome in "Groove-based" music."

I will not comment. It's all in the Music from the videos.
Just try to catch that "intangible" sense of groove.

Here is a studio version.


And now, let's listen to live performances of that song, with superb bass players.

 

[maturanesa]

just listen to your imaginary tempo/metronome and follow it, thats how internal time works

 

[Sparkl]

Welcome back.
I've thought we lost you in that "metronome-is-bad" mess.





First of all, thanks for expressing an interesting idea as
"Relying too much on the Metronome (as your friend)" could get you in the uncomfortable zone". (Like some bad addiction.)
Your statement is much better than "You don't need the metronome".

I don't have an answer but I have a few questions.

Let's say, we have a drummer playing a groovy song/composition with the click. That drummer is totally comfortable playing with the click and is able to express all the necessary dynamic, rhythmic (pocket), etc..., nuances for that drum pattern, mixed with "cool" and rhythmic-wise properly articulated drum fills, etc... - while having the "close-to-perfect" timing. If you record the drummer, you won't find any (distractive) rhythmic mistakes in each and every measure(!).
Just a very cool drum line/pattern.

(I tend to discern between playing along with the click/metronome and a "properly-nuanced-wise" dynamically-articulated one measure/bar at a time! I does me(!) no good to play with the metronome but produce only some "nebulous chaos".)

What are the chances that the drummer is going to "collapse" without a click/metronome track?

Well, that's a difficult question. Mainly because it depends on an individual. Some guys absorb the timing and can keep it without a metronome (Gregory Hutchinson for example), while some never get it.

As I said, you have to fine your own routine of practicing this. There really is no universal way of doing it.

Anyways, thanks for the understanding

 

[Bigbassguy]

It's a tool to be used like any other