Why is it hard to keep rhythm when playing alone?

[Badwater]

Did Jay Boogs get banned?

Timing is usually aquired by knowing the groove and melody of a song inside out. And knowing where and when to keep perfect time with the drums, and knowing how long or shot to give each note its value. Tempo a form of timing it takes practice to maintain. In some cases, I've seen musicians with amazing tempo, they have that natural ability. For most, the timing and tempo comes from practice.

 

[Ewo]

Fills in the space, so to speak...

Well, I understood it to be about precision...

Y'know the way these three measurement are _not_ really the same:

0.1
0.10
0.100

The first is to the nearest tenth, the second to the nearest hundredth, and the last to the nearest thousandth.

 

[lfmn16]

Couldn't disagree more. The bassist is the time keeper. The drummer is there for style. Overly simplified, but accurate throughout my career.

Back when I was in school, and dirt was brand new, we were told that it's the bass AND the drummer's responsibility to keep time. Unfortunately over the years I've learned that if the drummer doesn't listen to you, it doesn't matter how good your timing is. In a rehearsal with a drummer one of my bands let go last year, on a few songs I just held the time and refused to budge no matter how far off he got; it didn't matter, he either got enough ahead or behind that we caught up for a short time.

 

[Bigbri]

Well, I understood it to be about precision...

Y'know the way these three measurement are _not_ really the same:

0.1
0.10
0.100

The first is to the nearest tenth, the second to the nearest hundredth, and the last to the nearest thousandth.

They are one is just more accurate than the other

 

[Pacman]

Back when I was in school, and dirt was brand new, we were told that it's the bass AND the drummer's responsibility to keep time. Unfortunately over the years I've learned that if the drummer doesn't listen to you, it doesn't matter how good your timing is. In a rehearsal with a drummer one of my bands let go last year, on a few songs I just held the time and refused to budge no matter how far off he got; it didn't matter, he either got enough ahead or behind that we caught up for a short time.

Sad, but true. I just spent a weekend playing with a *horrendous* drummer who wouldn't listen. Nothing you can do in times like that but play to them, and *try* to make the band sound better. My comment was about guys who's playing isn't in question, you know?

 

[Bigbassguy]

What bassdude said. Use a metronome everyday. Keep one in your car!
Develop your own internal time. Use it on beat 2 and 4, but accent 1 and 3. I was told if you can swing with a metronome you can swing with anyone!

 

[Bigbri]

What bassdude said. Use a metronome everyday. Keep one in your car!
Develop your own internal time. Use it on beat 2 and 4, but accent 1 and 3. I was told if you can swing with a metronome you can swing with anyone!

Something a drummer used to get us to (try) to do is tap both hands 4/4 with the right and triplets with the left. good luck !! but yes metronomes are good but I find the sound very annoying after a while.

 

[Bigbri]

Sad, but true. I just spent a weekend playing with a *horrendous* drummer who wouldn't listen. Nothing you can do in times like that but play to them, and *try* to make the band sound better. My comment was about guys who's playing isn't in question, you know?

Ya my experience when younger was drummers would always speed up, and up and up.....

 

[Sparkl]

Umm, a couple of comments on your comment. Just discussing this "bassist timing" subject.

It is true that we bass players compliment the drummer's rhythm. Does the drummer follow the bassist or the bassist follow the drummer? Everybody in the band follows the drummer. He is the time keeper. The bassist keeps time with the drummer. The drummer keeps the bassists in time as well as everybody else.

Tangent : I recently read that Charlie Watts, the drummer of the Rolling Stones actually followed Keith Richards for timing and as a result, Bill Wyman the bass player described The Stones' sound as having a wobble because Charlie was always a micron off in timing with Keith.

My bass teacher, that I already mentioned, required that all his students use a metronome. His thinking was that if we used a metronome constantly with our bass practice...............then eventually, we'd develop our own accurate internal metronome in our minds and body in our playing.

Bottom line, it doesn't hurt to use a metronome for timing. A bass player will play more accurately with a drummer than without.

Sorry for the late response.

Well. What you are saying is true of course but it doesn't apply to the general way of acquiring your own internal clock in general.

Generally on a professional scale of things, you don't follow anyone. You are LISTENING to everybody though. Following someone means that you personally aren't really sure about how to execute something and are relying on someone else to do it for you so you can tag along with it.

This works in general for certain styles of music or for so called "amateur" sunday playing. If you want to become a sought after bass player yourself though, you need to improve your own internal clock and be able to play independently from everyone else.

Let me give you an example. The drummer starts to play in a 5 over 4 cross rhythm. Now if you tag along with him, you will surely loose the one. How are you supposed to play your 4/4 line stable if you don't realize what's going on?

Yes, playing with a metronome is of course the way to go. BUT (!) I would expand this further and say that practicing with a metronome by purely setting it to tick on every beat only gets you so far. Truth is, there is not a single musician on this planet that keeps his timing so strict that he always stays on that tick unless he plays on a click. Therefore what people mostly do by practicing with a metronome is relying on the click rather than learning to also listen to your surroundings to be able to adapt to different rhythms.

Especially in jazz for example, you have numerous tunes from the golden eras of jazz, played by top cats and you will frequently realize their tempo of the tune differs in a major way if you compare the start or the end of a tune. Doesn't mean these cats didn't have their internal clock figured out it only shows that tempo can sometimes also have a certain dynamic increase or decrease of its tempo throughout the whole tune. Now imagine someone being strictly taught to follow the metronome trying to play along a band like this. It would probably sound chaotic.

Therefore and most of all, you have to be a good listener. I would say that a great way of actually practicing your tempo with a metronome would be to set your metronome along with a form of a tune you are practicing.

Meaning, that, for example if you are practicing a 12 bar blues (jazz blues for example), you set your metronome to actually tick for the first 2 bars and then set it so that it doesn't tick at all for the rest 10 bars. This way you don't "learn" to rely on the metronome tick but merely use it as a reminder of your initial tempo to actually see how far from it you are when you play through one chorus. This is a very powerful practicing routine as you will get a great time feel in a long run but still will be able to play rhythm musically and not in a "synthetic way", which playing purely through a metronome actually is. It will also greatly improve your awareness of bars in the tune which is way more important than basically anything else if you really want to be a rhythm/tempo beast.

To further prove my point: Try to record a 16th note lick in your Logic Pro for example and quantise the line into a pure 16th feel. It will sound totally synthetic. Meaning there is more to rhythm than just pure mathematics and strict time space division.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The drummer starts to play in a 5 over 4 cross rhythm. Now if you tag along with him, you will surely loose the one. How are you supposed to play your 4/4 line stable if you don't realize what's going on?

OK.
And here is my question.

Do you just starting Jamming(!) with that drummer who out-of-blue just decided to play "5 over 4?"
Because,
there are SO many situations on stage (live) when NOBODY could understand "what's going on" with this or that musician/drummer.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

truth is, there is not a single musician on this planet that keeps his timing so strict that he always stays on that tick unless he plays on a click. Therefore what people mostly do by practicing with a metronome is relying on the click rather than learning to also listen to your surroundings to be able to adapt to different rhythms.

Yes, and NO(!!!).
Yes to "we are Humans, not machines",
and
NO(!!!) to the statement that playing to "naked" pulse - the click/metronome - prevents you from listening to your surroundings!

I've been "beating the dead horse" - we are internalizing SOMETHING with the help of the click/metronome just ONE BAR/MEASURE at a time at this or that tempo.
(Have you ever experienced moments when you don't hear that click/metronome?)

Playing with the metronome follows the same(!!!...) rule as TAPPING your foot, loudly counting the beats, listening to the teacher's counting, etc...
The metronome is just MORE objective.

When you are tapping your foot and playing something (or just one measure) are you following your foot????
When you are counting loudly the beats, are you following your counting.
What's more, when I COUNT and play, I seriously cannot pay too much attention to my surroundings!!!

Internalizing just one Measure, just ONE RIFF at a time allows you and me, and everybody else become FLEXIBLE enough to REFINE your riff, to enable you to become more, much more "adjustable" while playing with the Rhythm section, including the Drummer.

 

[bassdude51]

Sorry for the late response.

Well. What you are saying is true of course but it doesn't apply to the general way of acquiring your own internal clock in general.

Generally on a professional scale of things, you don't follow anyone. You are LISTENING to everybody though. Following someone means that you personally aren't really sure about how to execute something and are relying on someone else to do it for you so you can tag along with it.

This works in general for certain styles of music or for so called "amateur" sunday playing. If you want to become a sought after bass player yourself though, you need to improve your own internal clock and be able to play independently from everyone else.

Let me give you an example. The drummer starts to play in a 5 over 4 cross rhythm. Now if you tag along with him, you will surely loose the one. How are you supposed to play your 4/4 line stable if you don't realize what's going on?

Yes, playing with a metronome is of course the way to go. BUT (!) I would expand this further and say that practicing with a metronome by purely setting it to tick on every beat only gets you so far. Truth is, there is not a single musician on this planet that keeps his timing so strict that he always stays on that tick unless he plays on a click. Therefore what people mostly do by practicing with a metronome is relying on the click rather than learning to also listen to your surroundings to be able to adapt to different rhythms.

Especially in jazz for example, you have numerous tunes from the golden eras of jazz, played by top cats and you will frequently realize their tempo of the tune differs in a major way if you compare the start or the end of a tune. Doesn't mean these cats didn't have their internal clock figured out it only shows that tempo can sometimes also have a certain dynamic increase or decrease of its tempo throughout the whole tune. Now imagine someone being strictly taught to follow the metronome trying to play along a band like this. It would probably sound chaotic.

Therefore and most of all, you have to be a good listener. I would say that a great way of actually practicing your tempo with a metronome would be to set your metronome along with a form of a tune you are practicing.

Meaning, that, for example if you are practicing a 12 bar blues (jazz blues for example), you set your metronome to actually tick for the first 2 bars and then set it so that it doesn't tick at all for the rest 10 bars. This way you don't "learn" to rely on the metronome tick but merely use it as a reminder of your initial tempo to actually see how far from it you are when you play through one chorus. This is a very powerful practicing routine as you will get a great time feel in a long run but still will be able to play rhythm musically and not in a "synthetic way", which playing purely through a metronome actually is. It will also greatly improve your awareness of bars in the tune which is way more important than basically anything else if you really want to be a rhythm/tempo beast.

To further prove my point: Try to record a 16th note lick in your Logic Pro for example and quantise the line into a pure 16th feel. It will sound totally synthetic. Meaning there is more to rhythm than just pure mathematics and strict time space division.

EXCELLENT writing and expression! Thank-you for your effort and time to comment on the timing issue with this thread.

One comment that is in agreement with you is that my bass teacher who required his students, including me to use a metronome............well, my experience dates back to 1983 and my teacher, Cornel Wiley is now dead. So, this is an old experience and story.............................................but for my bass lessons, at the advice of my teacher, his students would use the metronome for double notes in between beats and even triplets in between beats. So, one tick but 2 notes played, next click. And of course, with triplets, one tick, 3 notes played. So, we students were not always dependent on rigidly playing one click - one note. We had to use out minds and internal clock for playing notes in between metronome beats or clicks.

Although, I must be candid in saying I have limited band scenario experience, most of my playing is spear headed by the drummer's kick drum or high hat and I try to not stay into a 1/4 note rut.

Once again, thank-you for your expressions! In music, I don't think there are any set rules that everyone must follow. Many of my favorite bassist and other musicians simply do incorrect methods.............and it works!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Meaning, that, for example if you are practicing a 12 bar blues (jazz blues for example), you set your metronome to actually tick for the first 2 bars and then set it so that it doesn't tick at all for the rest 10 bars.

I just love exercises. Do you know how many people like similar competition/s "Dancing with the Stars", etc...

In short.

When I listen to a blues band, I listen to MUSIC, I listen to the Sound of this or that band, musicians.
Now, just imagine if suddenly, the drummer unexpectedly stops playing.
Does it sound good to you?

Once again, with the help of the metronome, you, me, any bass player internalizes that riff/groove/pattern, etc... at this or that tempo. With the help of an "objective" metronome (not my internal daydream feelings) you, me, or anybody else is playing the riff at a slower/much slower tempo and LISTENING to the nuances of your, my, or anybody else's articulation, MOOD, CHARACTER, ATTITUDE (if possible) of that measure, riff, groove, etc...
Internalizing a phrase, riff, groove, pattern, measure - means achieving the flexibility, refining your "adjust-ability" with LIVE or sequenced rhythm group, including the drummer.

From your posting, I guess you have a lot studio recording experience, and you know for sure what kind of disaster it is NOT to sync your sequencer-ed instruments, even if all those MIDI instruments have set the same - digital - tempo.

Once again.
I highly recommend to use the Metronome to INTERNALIZE just one bar/measure, just one riff at a time, and become stronger in terms of your ability to "adjust" your line (bass), to adjust your Mood, Character, even your Timbre with regards to your aural surroundings.

P.S. What's better
a. to follow an "emotion-free" and strictly-objective metronome,
or
b. some "super-charged" and emotional human tapping, counting?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Try to record a 16th note lick in your Logic Pro for example and quantise the line into a pure 16th feel. It will sound totally synthetic.

"It will sound totally synthetic."

Highly disagree(!!!) that it will sound totally synthetic.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I've heard Carol Kaye say she had a lot of timing issues when she first started playing professionally, and that she cured them with metronome work.

For me, the way I work on it is to use a metronome that can mute certain bars. So you play your groove or riff or whatever, with 1 measure of click and 3 measures off, or some combination. It really builds your sense of time. So if you can do a bunch of syncopated lines with the click off and still hit the one when it comes back around, then you prolly have solid time.

 

[Bigbassguy]

Metronome is just another tool that helps.
Im interested in emotion and time feel, but I use the metronome in specific areas of the music.

 

[Bigbassguy]

As Monty budwig once said" so many drummers so little time"

 

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. I will never ever understand the motives behind that mean-spirited anti-metronome ideology!

I've heard a lot that the click/metronome "stifles" the musicians' emotions.

Here is one of the world's most emotional piano/jazz player - Hiromi Uehara playing with
Anthony Jackson - Bass
Simon Phillips - Drum

Even the song's name, "Desire" says a lot about emotions.
Just watch the live(!!!) video with all those "boiling feelings".

P.S.2. Here is a real-time BPM diagram from that performance.
In my eyes, that slight variation between 153BPM and 156BPM is superbly immaculate for that kind of live performance.

Here is the video.
Could anybody show me where Hiromi was seen as "stifled" due to that "strict", almost metronomic tempo?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Im interested in emotion and time feel, but I use the metronome in specific areas of the music.

Here at TB, we have lots of various levels musicians/bass players.
And we start "sharing" our experience without any regard to those specific bass players.
Let's say, if you have a Pro bass player (with 30 years of solid experience) who needs to play Suzi Quatro's, "Stumblin' In".
How much should that bass player practice with the Metronome that song in order to be able to play it live or record in the studio?
What if we have a brand new amateur bass player who've just picked up the bass?

 

[Sparkl]

P.S. I will never ever understand the motives behind that mean-spirited anti-metronome ideology!

I've heard a lot that the click/metronome "stifles" the musicians' emotions.

Here is one of the world's most emotional piano/jazz player - Hiromi Uehara playing with
Anthony Jackson - Bass
Simon Phillips - Drum

Even the song's name, "Desire" says a lot about emotions.
Just watch the live(!!!) video with all those "boiling feelings".

P.S.2. Here is a real-time BPM diagram from that performance.
In my eyes, that slight variation between 153BPM and 156BPM is superbly immaculate for that kind of live performance.

View attachment 1171182

Here is the video.
Could anybody show me where Hiromi was seen as "stifled" due to that "strict", almost metronomic tempo?

I am not an anti metronome musician hehe. Never said that. My whole point is that one should not limit himself only to the metronome but embrace the rhythm and tempo in the complete package. I have even stated that practicing with a metronome is an absolute way to go.

My point here is that if you played with these guys with your in-ear click you would still get out of sync. Hence, you need to listen to the surroundings more than relying purely on metronome. Use the metronome as a practicing tool, but then ditch it asap unless the whole band plays on a click.

Edit: Some extra clarification is probably needed on the term "ditch". Don't mean it in a way that you stop using it completely, just start implementing your knowledge in a practical application as soon as you can. That's where the real magic happens.