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Why is Jaco larger than life?

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#22
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


I'd agree with that!! ;)
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That's cuz you're a snob! :D

Seriously, though, at it's best, I think popular songwriting is just as valid as classical. Sure, there is a lot of crap around (I'm sure there's always been crap around, but it doesn't survive). It's a different form of composition to a symphony or concerto, obviously, but to me, just as valid musically. When I say popular songwriting at it's best I'm thinking of things like The Beatles (Revolver, Pepper, White Album, Abbey Road), Stevie Wonder (Talking Book, Innervisions, Songs In The Key Of Life), Steely Dan (The Royal Scam, Aja), Sting (Synchronicity (Police), Ten Summoner's Tales, Brand New Day) - as well as other songwriters such as Bacharach, as well as Cole Porter etc. To name but a few.
 
#23
There is a difference!

I think it is clear that while there is no doubt that say Beethoven, Bach etc are great composers and their work has intrinsic worth; I'm not sure the same can be applied to the people you mention.

So - I would say that a lot of Sting's work is just rubbish and could easily provide critical analysis by reputable writers.

But I don't think any reputable writer would slam Bach for example - these works have stood the test of time and analysis.
 
#24
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
There is a difference!

I think it is clear that while there is no doubt that say Beethoven, Bach etc are great composers and their work has intrinsic worth; I'm not sure the same can be applied to the people you mention.

So - I would say that a lot of Sting's work is just rubbish and could easily provide critical analysis by reputable writers.

But I don't think any reputable writer would slam Bach for example - these works have stood the test of time and analysis.
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I don't think any work has more instrinsic value than any other. You think that Bach & Beethoven have more instrinsic worth than Sting? Surely you think it's subjective? How could you say that it has more instrinsic worth - by what standard?

Obviously, you don't like Sting. OK. Can I ask what material you are basing your opinion that "a lot of Sting's work is just rubbish".
 
#25
Originally posted by moley

. You think that Bach & Beethoven have more instrinsic worth than Sting? Surely you think it's subjective? How could you say that it has more instrinsic worth - by what standard?
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Well I think any decent musicologist could point you to a large number of innovations that Bach and Beethoven made in compositional terms - counterpoint, fugues, sonata form etc

Whereas I can see nothing innovative whatsoever in Stings' solo work, from the point of view of working in the area of tonal composition.
 
#26
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well I think any decent musicologist could point you to a large number of innovations that Bach and Beethoven made in compositional terms - counterpoint, fugues, sonata form etc

Whereas I can see nothing innovative whatsoever in Stings' solo work, from the point of view of working in the area of tonal composition.
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I wasn't only referring to his solo work. What he did with The Police was innovative I'd say. And I don't reckon you need to make huge advances in musical form to be valid musically! I ask you again - what material, specifically are you referring to when you say it's all rubbish? I don't see Sting's solo work as being hugely innovative in the way Bach & Beethoven were - but it is individual and distinctive.
 
#29
Originally posted by moley
So you reckon music has to be innovative on that scale to be as musically valid?
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I was just saying that this is what makes " popular songwriting trivial compared with classical works..."

But there's nothing wrong with a bit of triviality if that's what you like!! ;)

I watch "Eastenders" to relax!! :D
 
#30
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


I was just saying that this is what makes " popular songwriting trivial compared with classical works..."

But there's nothing wrong with a bit of triviality if that's what you like!! ;)

Well, I suppose it depends on exactly what you mean by trivial. Perhaps I should have said "musically valid" instead in the first place. What I mean is I don't think classical (or Jazz for that matter) has any musical superiority over pop music - or any other kind of music.

I watch "Eastenders" to relax!! :D
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Since when is Eastenders relaxing?? :D
 
#31
Originally posted by moley


What I mean is I don't think classical (or Jazz for that matter) has any musical superiority over pop music - or any other kind of music.
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I believe that Classical has far more musical innovation and complexity.

So - atonal systems of composition like Schonberg's 12-tone row, are nowhere to be found in pop music. Music like Messiaen's is in several keys at once simultaneously - you get nothing like that in pop music.

Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" has numerous innovations in terms of rhythm - layers of different time signatures - anything outside of a very basic 4/4 is very rare in pop music!!
 
#34
Blackbird, I don't think you're stretchin' man...excellent points, and the comparison to Bird is dead on, no pun-in-poor-taste intended.

And Brad makes excellent points as well...I dig. In fact, when Jaco was "really himself", he was a very humble cat who always gave props to those who went before him. In fact, in an interview he said something to the effect of "I'm just a poor immitation of James Jamerson, Jerry Jemmott, etc., etc"...sorry I don't remember all the cats he cited. :o
 
#36
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


I believe that Classical has far more musical innovation and complexity.

So - atonal systems of composition like Schonberg's 12-tone row, are nowhere to be found in pop music. Music like Messiaen's is in several keys at once simultaneously - you get nothing like that in pop music.

Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" has numerous innovations in terms of rhythm - layers of different time signatures - anything outside of a very basic 4/4 is very rare in pop music!!
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Aha - so musical worth is now defined by complexity. I see. :rolleyes:

And, as far as 4/4 goes, I believe we were talking about Sting a minute ago...

"Straight To My Heart" (from "...Nothing Like The Sun") - 7/8 IIRC
"Love Is Stronger Than Justice (The Munificent Seven)" (from "Ten Summoner's Tales") - 7/8 (verse) & 4/4 (chorus)
"Seven Days" (from "Ten Summoner's Tales") - 5/4
"St. Augustine In Hell" (from "Ten Summoner's Tales") - 7/8
"I Hung My Head" (from "Mercury Falling") - 9/8 (4+5)
"I Was Brought To My Senses" (from "Mercury Falling") - 7/8
"Twenty-Five To Midnight" (from "Mercury Falling") - 7/4
"Big Lie Small World" (from "Brand New Day") - 9/4 (4 + 5 or 4 + 4 + 1)
"Perfect Love... Gone Wrong" (from "Brand New Day") ends in 7/8 IIRC
"Ghost Story" (from "Brand New Day") has a 7/8 section

Then, there are numerous others with time signatures other than 4/4 - some are 3/4, some compound time etc.

People seem to say things like "anything outside of a very basic 4/4 is very rare in pop music!!" - but as far as I can see it just isn't true - and Sting isn't the only example. I guess people who say that are just looking at the singles chart. Shame, cos there's a whole lot more that you're not hearing.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Yeah, I think I've just about won that argument now!!
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There you go again with your winning/losing bull****.


Anyway, hijack over, you will now be returned to your scheduled thread...
 
#38
"Seriously, though, at it's best, I think popular songwriting is just as valid as classical. Sure, there is a lot of crap around (I'm sure there's always been crap around, but it doesn't survive)".
--------------------------------------------------
( I agree sort of )
There was probably alot of compositional crap/good art from the "Classical Era" that didn't survive because of poor record keeping, and inability to record it somehow. Unfortunately, we can and do record lotsa crap today.

Reviewing the whole "kenny G" thing with him dubbing over Armstrong, and regarding Jaco, I am relieved to notice:

Some things are sacred.
 
#39
Yes. Spot on. Not only was Jaco an essential innovater but if it were not for he predecessors he would not have played the way he does - and not only bass players that influenced him, Ellington and Sinatra were both cited by big influences on him. But bass-wise, it seems that whenever you read an interview with a pre-Jaco bass player that met Jaco after he got famous, Jaco told them that they were an influence on him. I get the feeling that he listened to everyone he could and just stole everything that he felt he could use, and in the process came up with a brand new bag.

And Victor rules when it comes to groove and flash but for sheer musicality and emotional content he's light-years behind many less technically accomplished players.

Alex

P.S. It's easier to be critical of 'pop' music than classical because modern songs are usually personal and emotional expressive art, whilst the beauty of much classical music (particularly Bach and other Baroque composers) is an almost abstract mathmatical beauty and as such one is almost forced into being objective. Pop songs on the other hand demand a subjective view, so it's 'IMO' whenever they are criticised.
 
#40
* POLICE RADIO VOICE ON *

1-Adam twelve, 1-Adam twelve...211...thread hijacking...see the man...suspects bickering and not staying on topic...possibly verbose and redundant...proceed with caution.

* POLICE RADIO VOICE OFF *

* POLICE BULLHORN ON *

All right you guys...step away from the thread, lie on the ground face down with your arms extended! Repeat...step AWAY from the thread!

* POLICE BULLHORN OFF *


:D
 
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