Why is mixing cab sizes a bad idea?

[bassicmike]

I used to run an Eden 2x10 with an Eden 1x18 and got a most lovely round bottom that the 2x10 alone couldn't produce .

 

[buldog5151bass]

Phil Jones uses, what - 5" and 7" drivers? His amps seem to have enough bottom.

 

[HaphAsSard]

If you compare the Hartke HD210 and HD115, they are both rated at 500W 8 Ohms. I can't find sensitivity ratings.

I think a lot of people would assume that since these cabs are from the same product line, they would pair well together. I couldn't say one way or the other. The HD210 lists F3 at 50hz and F10 at 35hz. The HD115 lists F3 at 45hz and F10 at 20hz. That suggest dissimilar tunings, but I couldn't say if it is different enough to cause a major problem. I think it would be best to audition both and then order a pair of matching cabs, whichever model I think sounds best.

In first place I guess an "stupid" advertising issue (sometimes issues do happen for ever what reason), in second place marketing department goals.

Do you really know about what a 500 Watt cone speaker looks like on specs respectively efficience?

edit,
it might be interesting to ask a question to the Hartke support center....
Personally I don't feel any need doing it.

(Off-topic, but) I've been wondering about the new Hartke HD cabs and their freq response specs. If the latter are truthful (and if the 115's power handling figure also is), the sensitivity must be veeeeery low .

 

[ThisBass]

@Wasnex
another consideration cause RMS means nothing but RMS.
It may happen the Hartke engineers consider a noticable lowish tuning to be more robust versus transient noise which then relates into better "robustness" if there is no HPF present to protect the loudspeaker from over excursions.
As RMS is no common standard (its nothing but anything) so it all depends on the manufacurers responspility to provide "reliable" numbers

 

[Al Kraft]

IME it's only a bad idea if it produces results that you find are not meeting your requirements or expected/desired sound...which is the same kind of bad as having perfectly matching cabs that don't meet your requirements or expected/desired sound. Precisely why any set of cabs might sound bad relative to what you're looking for can be a result of anything from simple physics/acoustics relative to individual cab designs/design goals to possibly being too much or not enough of the good thing you found in each cab.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I've heard that you shouldn't mix cabs, but why is this?

I would have figured that using a 1x15 and a 2x10 together would give you a warm low end from the 15 and a tight top end from the 10s, but I guess this isn't the case.

I would never not use certain gear because of what someone explains “on paper” so to speak. If it sounds good mixing cabs than great, if it sounds stale, boxy or just bad in general to use two of the same cab I wouldn’t use them just because talkbass says so lol.

That said if you are gonna mix cabs I would at least stay within the same brand and series of cabs. Better odds the mad scientists who design this stuff put in some effort to make sure they’d work well together. I like running my ampeg 410he with the 15 together although More often than not I use the 15 as a speaker stand for the 410 because I just don’t need That much stage volume. You can look in the Mesa d-800 and d-800+ threads here on TB and combining the Mesa subway 15 with the 12 seems to be a popular combination with those.

 

[Wasnex]

In first place I guess an "stupid" advertising issue (sometimes issues do happen for ever what reason), in second place marketing department goals.

Do you really know about what a 500 Watt cone speaker looks like on specs respectively efficience?

edit,
it might be interesting to ask a question to the Hartke support center....
Personally I don't feel any need doing it.

Of course not, the driver specs alone won't tell you what the real world power handling will be.

If they were made available, I could look at the driver's thermal power ratings and the cone displacement charts associated with the driver specs and cabinet tunings to get an idea of what their real world power handling would be. Even an illiterati such as myself can understand this information if it is presented in a nice graph. I doubt either of these cabs would handle 500W of bass, but the information is not available and IMHO it doesn't have a lot to do with the thread.

I presented the HD210 and HD115 as an example because I think a lot of people will assume they are a good performance match and will sound great together. I am not making any predictions, instead I recommend people try out all the possible combinations and then choose the one that best meets their needs. I think most people would ultimately choose a pair of matched cabs if they did this.

 

[Wood and Wire]

I've heard that you shouldn't mix cabs, but why is this?

Because it makes loading the tour van a real pain in the ass, when everything is odd sizes.

An equipment/van map is essential, and whoever loads the van after each show has to stick to that map, religiously - and not loose the map, or accidentally use it to soak up spilt beer.

That's the main reason.

 

[Wasnex]

I used to run an Eden 2x10 with an Eden 1x18 and got a most lovely round bottom that the 2x10 alone couldn't produce .

I used to run an SWR RedHead with a Big Ben. the RedHead was tuned super deep, was a bit mid-scooped, and it tended to get lost in the mix...I.E. bedroom tone. The Big Ben filled in the mid scoop nicely so it was much easier to hear my bass in the mix.

 

[Al Kraft]

I used to run an SWR RedHead with a Big Ben. the RedHead was tuned super deep, was a bit mid-scooped, and it tended to get lost in the mix...I.E. bedroom tone. The Big Ben filled in the mid scoop nicely so it was much easier to hear my bass in the mix.

...in other words, it worked perfectly for what you were hoping to achieve regardless of what specs and science and folklore might have suggested.

 

[ThisBass]

Of course not, the driver specs alone won't tell you what the real world power handling will be.

So how shall we engineers design anything without any trust in the specs?

 

[Al Kraft]

So how shall we engineers design anything without any trust in the specs?

I suspect what he meant was that a single spec without knowing how the driver will be used in the cab design may not be enough to tell you much. I would certainly want to know how the 500 Watts was measured (test conditions), whether it's peak, RMS, program, etc. and whether the rating is reflecting thermal or mechanical limits.

 

[Stewie]

An Ampeg SVT15E with an SVT210HE on top of it will make you smile. a 410HE on top is nice too, but kinda heavy to bring up stairs

 

[Wasnex]

@Wasnex
another consideration cause RMS means nothing but RMS.
It may happen the Hartke engineers consider a noticable lowish tuning to be more robust versus transient noise which then relates into better "robustness" if there is no HPF present to protect the loudspeaker from over excursions.
As RMS is no common standard (its nothing but anything) so it all depends on the manufacurers responspility to provide "reliable" numbers

I don't know what standard Hartke uses to rate their speakers. I do think they apply a consistent standard within the company, so hopefully 500W RMS = 500W RMS. I do suspect this is the thermal rating rather than the mechanical power handling, which would probably make the rating essentially meaningless, but that is just a guess.

All of these point of minutia support my contention that mixing dissimilar cabs can be messy business because it greatly expands the range of unknown variables the user has to deal with.

Under what conditions is it better to pair dissimilar cabs than identical cabs?

 

[ThisBass]

If they were made available, I could look at the driver's thermal power ratings and the cone displacement charts associated with the driver specs and cabinet tunings to get an idea of what their real world power handling would be.

We have got lots of dynamic with a signal (peak power) and we have got to consider an average RMS number with any signal.
We also have got a thing that is called transient noise which naturally comes along if a signal envelope does change in level versus time (most of the time the decay envelope) which does "enrich" the spectrum with noise that is hard to predict.

If you read the plots of a cab modelling you have to consider all of the aspects that may happen in real live. Fortunatelly with bass guitar the 2nd harmonic does not suck all the power you can read with a modelling at (for example) 80Hz where cone excursion shows a peaking.
Unfortunatelly the impact of transient noise is rather unpredictable thus the cone excursion below cab tuning is nothing but a "stupd" gues if you look only for the harmonic (Fourier) content of the bass guitar.

I don't think its such as as easy to read the specs for "thermal" and "mechanical" modelling plots to "predict" a realiable power handling for a cab system.

 

[Wood and Wire]

Under what conditions is it better to pair dissimilar cabs than identical cabs?

The 1980's

 

[Wasnex]

So how shall we engineers design anything without any trust in the specs?

Simple you use the driver specs when you develop the system specs. They are related, but not the same. I am confident you know this far better than I do.

 

[Al Kraft]

Under what conditions is it better to pair dissimilar cabs than identical cabs?

IMO your points are well made relative to power handling. In the case of something like the Mesa SW line of cabs I can see situations where the combination of say a 115 and 210 or 115 and 112 might provide a voicing that is more appealing and can be done with the knowledge that the cabs were designed in every respect to be safely mixed or matched. I think the Hartke XL line has some cabs that are specifically designed to be used together, as does Ampeg IIRC.

 

[agedhorse]

Because it makes loading the tour van a real pain in the ass, when everything is odd sizes.

An equipment/van map is essential, and whoever loads the van after each show has to stick to that map, religiously - and not loose the map, or accidentally use it to soak up spilt beer.

That's the main reason.

Try this with PA... 16' - 24' worth of gear packed pretty tight (helps prevent shifting). When you unload load and a truck/trailer 2 or 3 nights a week for what seems like forever, and everything fits like a glove (pack-friendly sizes), the pack map is no longer necessary.

 

[Wood and Wire]

Try this with PA... 16' - 24' worth of gear packed pretty tight (helps prevent shifting). When you unload load and a truck/trailer 2 or 3 nights a week for what seems like forever, and everything fits like a glove (pack-friendly sizes), the pack map is no longer necessary.

Thankfully, doing the punk band in a van thing, I only ever had to worry about 3 guys amps, a drum kit, and a few HSC's of instruments - and a bin liner full of disgusting underwear (helps prevent shifting ).