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why is there no 1176 compressor in a pedal...

#23
If it was digital I wouldn´t buy it. Digital compression is not to the par to the analog yet, except maybe for few units like Weiss of wich you can buy like minimun 4 1176 with the price of one.

IME the trainies on an unit have big impact on the sound like someone stated before, The best example is the pre-amp on the Neve 1073 wich is solid state.

Though I´d like a distressor pedal
 
#30
conical johnson said:
For sure. Having designed some digital effects myself, I agree completely, but sometimes what people hear is influenced by what they expect to hear, if you get what I'm saying. So if anybody were to make such a thing (and it wouldn't be me, so there's no COI issue here), I think a lot of people would be turned off before they ever heard it.
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I get what you're saying, but I think this trend is changing all the time. Just look at the recent embrace that the Line 6 M series is getting, not to mention Source Audio. Of course, a lot of the people that use these products will say that analog still sounds better, but digital flexibility is tough to ignore. In many cases I think that's true.

I think the biggest problem with a compact digital pedal, is that by the time you've invested enough in the hardware to make it sound really good, (aka AD/DA) you might as well build a multi. Something like the Line6 Constrictor would be really cool if they just made it... better.


As far as the argument about Transistors goes, I completely agree that they are an important factor in the sound. I just don't think that they qualify as a make or break factor if your goal is to make an 1176 pedal. If you're all about the 1176, you're probably going to use an actual 1176 (or very good plug-in version) in the studio. To me, a pedal version would be heavily targeted at live use. In other words, we could probably accept that there are going to be some compromises in sound compared to the real thing.

I guess my over all point is, if I was trying to design/build an 1176 in a pedal, I wouldn't try to squeeze a reworked version of the original design in a little box. I would start relatively fresh and simply try to capture some of the key elements of the sound and control interface in an 18V FET circuit. It actually seems quite possible in my mind.
 
#31
Sure, but the "problem" is that the tone of these legendary devices is the result of cumulative subtle distortions from a variety of components, so IMO it would actually be easier and more correct to model digitally than to emulate with different analog components. For example, almost every optical compressor on the market is trumpeted as being "based on the LA2A" or "uses a real opto isolator just like the LA2A!"... yet the actual results are just not all that close. That's why I am so insistent on the importance of the transformers--not because I think by themselves they make or break the tone, but because they are a key ingredient of the cumulative coloration. Leaving them out, or using a different much smaller component for some vaguely similar effect, is like leaving a key ingredient out of a food recipe. Sure, the result will still be food, and mostly similar, and maybe even tasty, but it not the same dish. That distinction matters to somebody who is dissatisfied with the other very good similar devices on the market, and who wants this specific dish.
 
#32
As a person that works for a man known for his transformer designs I would have to say that transformers have a significant impact on sound.

That being said they are expensive and probably a little over-kill for a stomp-box...but it would be nice.

It would not be hard to design a stomp-box compressor. Visit the THAT Corp website, they have all the parts (VCA's and RMS detectors) needed and some Application Notes that can tell you everything you need to know.
If you prefer opto's, check out the Silonex site. They also have some really good App Notes.
 
#33
bongomania said:
Sure, but the "problem" is that the tone of these legendary devices is the result of cumulative subtle distortions from a variety of components, so IMO it would actually be easier and more correct to model digitally than to emulate with different analog components. For example, almost every optical compressor on the market is trumpeted as being "based on the LA2A" or "uses a real opto isolator just like the LA2A!"... yet the actual results are just not all that close. That's why I am so insistent on the importance of the transformers--not because I think by themselves they make or break the tone, but because they are a key ingredient of the cumulative coloration. Leaving them out, or using a different much smaller component for some vaguely similar effect, is like leaving a key ingredient out of a food recipe. Sure, the result will still be food, and mostly similar, and maybe even tasty, but it not the same dish. That distinction matters to somebody who is dissatisfied with the other very good similar devices on the market, and who wants this specific dish.
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To follow on your food analogy, I think changing some ingredients does not really make it a whole new dish dish. Fish tacos with mahi are quite different from fish tacos with grouper, but they're still both fish tacos. As it is I don't think anyone is making a compressor pedal that offers the same attack/release ranges, ratio selections, and input vs output threshold control, as the 1176. I agree that these features alone don't really make an 1176, but I think that you could achieve the same dynamic response in a way that was familiar to the 1176. Dynamic response is ultimately what it's really about when dealing with compression isn't it? I think the subtle distortions that you talk about missing out on would be very hard to appreciate in a lot of live settings.

Would a digital emulation that captures these aspects be better than what I'm talking about? Sure, but I guess I'm think about cost and practicality. As I said before, if you're going to invest in the AD/DA conversion that's going to do your programing justice, you might as well put a few more effects in there. I think TC Electronic and Line 6 almost had it right with Nova Dynamics/Constrictor.

If UAD would just make a compact pedal with their 1176, LA2A, and Fairchild emulations for under $300, well that would suck because my head would explode and I'd be too dead to enjoy it.
 
#34
rumblinbass said:
As a person that works for a man known for his transformer designs...
It would not be hard to design a stomp-box compressor. Visit the THAT Corp website, they have all the parts (VCA's and RMS detectors) needed and some Application Notes that can tell you everything you need to know.
If you prefer opto's, check out the Silonex site. They also have some really good App Notes.
Click to expand...
As an engineer that works for Neve you should know that opto's and THAT VCA's are an entirely different kettle of fish from the FET-driven 1176. :) Also we have many opto and THAT pedals on the market already--what the OP is lamenting is the absence of a pedal closely modeled on the 1176, not the absence of pedal compressors.
 
#35
Well, I don't think there's any doubt that a stompbox compressor can be made (see Bongo's site for the jillions which already exist). It's a little more specific than that. ;) As Bongo points out, making something that's not really true to the 1176 in significant ways would defeat the purpose. You might wind up with a fine comp, but if you make too many concessions you'll lose the interest of the people who wanted it in the first place.

An 1176 without FETs or trafos would be something, but not an 1176. :D

Edit: D'oh, Bongo beat me to it. Need to go get my coffee before pressing "reply".
 
#36
Mingus Addict said:
To follow on your food analogy, I think changing some ingredients does not really make it a whole new dish dish. Fish tacos with mahi are quite different from fish tacos with grouper, but they're still both fish tacos.
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~~Note: just enjoying the discussion, not "arguing"~~

I would look at the removal or mitigation of a key tone element as being like the removal or mitigation of a key flavor element. So rather than being one type of tasty fish replaced with another type of tasty fish, it would be more like leaving out the fish, or using fish that isn't tasty.

Taking the metaphor to a silly extreme, I agree with you that in a live stage setting, loud band mix, nobody could tell the difference whether there was fish in that taco or not, or if it was beef or tofu. The bassist could consider himself lucky if the audience could even appreciate that there was a taco at all. But many of us put a tremendous amount of effort into our tone, for our own pleasure and benefit, regardless of whether it can be heard in a rock song onstage.
 
#37
bongomania said:
As an engineer that works for Neve you should know that opto's and THAT VCA's are an entirely different kettle of fish from the FET-driven 1176. :) Also we have many opto and THAT pedals on the market already--what the OP is lamenting is the absence of a pedal closely modeled on the 1176, not the absence of pedal compressors.
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I am also very aware of the complexity of a FET compressor.

All I was merely trying to suggest was a simple, practical solution that would make sense for a stomp-box applilcation.
(and is possible for a diy-er to do on there own).
 
#38
I don't know why everyone is so hung up about the transformer size. It looks like the output transformer is a Lundahl LL5402. This transformer is only 1.7 x 1.1 x 0.8 inches so it could easily fit in a pedal. It also looks like the only voltages used in the circuit are +30V and -10V which could easily be achieved without using a large power transformer.
 
#40
gryphix said:
I don't know why everyone is so hung up about the transformer size. It looks like the output transformer is a Lundahl LL5402. This transformer is only 1.7 x 1.1 x 0.8 inches so it could easily fit in a pedal. It also looks like the only voltages used in the circuit are +30V and -10V which could easily be achieved without using a large power transformer.
Click to expand...

it's not always the size. A lot of what needs to be factored in is the cost...especially considering the target market.
 

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