Double Bass Why isn't Jazz that popular? (DB forum thread)

[Don Higdon]

Also your logic for All Blues is contradicting, if they were only original performances and neither pop or show tunes, how come the songs mentioned, and others are in the Real Book, which is a book of these standards. Did they just say hey this is a cool song lets throw it in there, or did Miles cover it and put it on a record?

I have no idea what you think you're saying. Please try again, in coherent English.

 

[MJ_Sotti]

I think jazz is "musician's music". I put '70s progrock like ELP & Genesis (until they sold out) in a category like that too.

Don't taze me here , bro's...but regular peeps wanna hear pop songs. Today's skrillix, rap and that poo ain't music.

Stuff like Christina Agullairia? Yes. I have a 12 year old son, who's playing the drums...likes Maiden, Foo Fighters...stuff like that. Good stuff for a 12 year old. But go past his locker room at the rink and the ghetto rap is blastin like crazy. Yep. In a hockey rink. What you're exposed to, you get familiar with it and begin to like that. So he likes some rap too. A big NO from me on the obscene stuff though. We were driving down to a fest gig last week (he kind of roadies for us...especially the drummer) and a car pulled up next to us with the BOOM BOOM BOOM going, we started talking rap and I pulled up a couple of things like "The Humpty Dance" and De La Soul's "Me Myself and I". He loved it. IMO that's when rap had some musical value to it.

Here's where I'm afraid of the tazer...someone called Wham!'s Wake Me Up Before You Go Go, a perfect example of a pop song...

Don't know if I got this right but...a hook (do the jitterbug), a singable verse and a refrain to fade.

That's what regular people like.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Also your logic for All Blues is contradicting, if they were only original performances and neither pop or show tunes, how come the songs mentioned, and others are in the Real Book, which is a book of these standards. Did they just say hey this is a cool song lets throw it in there, or did Miles cover it and put it on a record?

I think you are misunderstanding what Don is saying.

It is all about what you mean by "cover" - Jazz musicians intepret they don't "cover" tunes. The original tune is just a jumping off point for group improvisation and it can be re-harmonised, changed rhythmically etc. etc.

In Jazz anything is up for grabs and the idea is create a performance anew every evening - if a Jazz group was to take 4 bars of a tune and repeat this in a different time signature, while the Sax player solos over the top for 15 minutes - this is fairly typical.

But this is as far way from the idea of "covering" a tune as possible ! A cover band is looking to reproduce that tune as it was played - that is exactly NOT what Jazz musicians do!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Don't know if I got this right but...a hook (do the jitterbug), a singable verse and a refrain to fade.

That's what regular people like.

Sorry but that just sounds patronising!

I go to a Jazz club locally that plays some pretty modern and cutting-edge Jazz - but there are plenty of "regular people in the audience, digging it!

 

[heynorm]

About 1980 my wife bought tickets to see Weather Report for Valentine's Day as she knew I liked them. I enjoyed the concert. To her it sounded like they were 'tuning up" all night. (sigh)

 

[notverygood]

I think you are misunderstanding what Don is saying.

It is all about what you mean by "cover" - Jazz musicians intepret they don't "cover" tunes. The original tune is just a jumping off point for group improvisation and it can be re-harmonised, changed rhythmically etc. etc.

In Jazz anything is up for grabs and the idea is create a performance anew every evening - if a Jazz group was to take 4 bars of a tune and repeat this in a different time signature, while the Sax player solos over the top for 15 minutes - this is fairly typical.

But this is as far way from the idea of "covering" a tune as possible ! A cover band is looking to reproduce that tune as it was played - that is exactly NOT what Jazz musicians do!

I think you have summed up quite nicely why jazz is not popular. I can't imagine my wife or any of our friends going to a show where the band changes up their favorite songs on the fly way past the point where they recognize it. Just the sentence "while the sax player solos over the top for 15 mins" is enough to send most people running for the exits. To be clear, I'm not putting down or bashing jazz music. Just giving my thoughts on why it's not more popular. Anyone looking for some other reasons should take a step back, change your perception to that of a non-musician, and reread this thread. I can't imagine anyone, other than hipsters, curious about jazz music remaining that way after reading some of the comments made here.

 

[gerry grable]

The original meaning of "cover" was imitation, copying someone else's approach, arrangement, delivery.

The misunderstanding of the terms "cover" and "cover band" has long been a pet peeve of mine. They are now used by, mostly younger musicians, as put down meaning a cover band that plays or rerecords other people's music as opposed to a band (much superior in their minds) playing only their own original material. Actually "cover" refers to a racial practice which goes back to recordings of the 20s and 30s when major white record companies had splinter or parallel black record companies that catered to the black audiences.They actually were called "race records!" If a song on the black label showed promise and a potential to cross over to the more lucrative (for the record companies) white market they found a white artist to rerecord it, not necessarily copy it note for note.
One song that comes to my mind is Peggy Lee's cover of Lil Green's version of You've Come a Long Way From St. Louie. Lee's record was a huge hit on the white label while Green's original version, while great and popular, was less financially successful on the black label. This naturally caused animosity and resentment as being yet another example of black exploitation, hence the perjorative tone of the term that continues to this day
The practice of using cover artists (always from black to white) went on through the 50s with Pat Boone's soul-less covers of Ivory Joe William's blues songs I Almost Lost My Mind and Since My Baby Left Me . These were covers in the true sense of the word. The practice goes on still but is no longer insidious. Nowadays writers get royalties! In a rare reversal (white to black) I'm sure that Dolly Parton is more than happy with Whitney Houston's cover of her hit I'm Saving All My Love For You. Also, Michael Bolton lauched his career by covering Sitting On the Dock of the Bay.
P.S.
And. . .for some three-chord wonder to call my interpretation of Stella by Starlight (not a show tune but a movie sound track as is On Green Dlophin Street, a cover is simply ludicrous.

I've bumped this because there still seems to be confusion as to what the term "cover" means. I have explained in detail the original meaning of the word "cover" in my previous post .
These are facts not my opinions. In Forme of Speche of Chauge: title from a college text by one of my professors: Language and the meanings of words change and/or acquire new meanings--often confusing. Keith Jarrett's Standards albums are indeed standards and are interpretations-- definitely not covers.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I doubt most of the commenters here who slam jazz even know who Buddy Bolden was, could describe in music terms his contribution to jazz, much less musically define and describe the eras of jazz from Buddy until the present..... or play them for that matter.

I've never heard him, don't think anyone living has. Makes it difficult to assert his influence.

 

[gerry grable]

I've never heard him, don't think anyone living has. Makes it difficult to assert his influence.

I seem to remember a spoof article, actually a dig on Wyton Marsalis, where Wynton was going to rewrite and record a "lost score" of Bolden from three notes that he discovered scrawled on the back of an old bar napkin. Wynton was going to emulate Bolden's drive and particularly his "fat tone."

 

[NicholasF]

I have no idea what you think you're saying. Please try again, in coherent English.

Sorry, i thought this was a forum for bassists, not copy editors.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Sorry, i thought this was a forum for bassists, not copy editors.

Sorry, Nick, I don't understand much of what you write either.

 

[gerry grable]

Sorry, i thought this was a forum for bassists, not copy editors.

Yes . . . the forum is for bassists, but this thread is Miscellaneous, and concern for the clarity of written expression is well within its purview

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I think you have summed up quite nicely why jazz is not popular. I can't imagine my wife or any of our friends going to a show ...

But there is a huge world out there beyond your own circle of friends - Jazz has enduring support in many European countries.

I go to local Jazz clubs most weekends as a member of the audience and there are many ordinary people who love the music and feel that unless a Sax player can sustain their interest over a 15 minute solo, then they can't be that good a player.

Many people don't know music theory, but understand that a soloist is building a solo and telling a story over a period of time - they want to hear soloists who have the imagination to play over familiar chord sequences many times, without repeating themselves.

It's not about playing exactly what was on the recording - might as well sit at home with the CD then - but rather about hearing musicians who have the skill, imagination and ideas to sustain your interest by creating something new every night.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Yes . . . the forum is for bassists, but this thread is Miscellaneous, and concern for the clarity of written expression is well within its purview

Clarity of expression - intent and purpose - are vital skills in playing Jazz as well. You need to communicate to fellow band members and engage an audience.

 

[azureblue]

I've never heard him, don't think anyone living has. Makes it difficult to assert his influence.

Then you do not know your jazz history, and you sure are not a trumpet player from New Orleans. Sorry, a lot of jazz players and historians know about Buddy. Not knowing Buddy is is like not knowing who Thomas Edison is. Buddy and his band is where it all came from. I'm a bass player and know about him! Jeez. As bassists, we should know where the other instruments we play with got their influences, so we can phrase and swing with them, and know where they are going when they improvise, so we can respond and reinforce their solos. This is basic stuff.

Buddy Bolden, a cornet player who was born and lived in New Orleans, is credited with creating jazz. In a nutshell, he took the field hollers, the call and response chants, the black church songs, the blues,, and moved the vocal embellishments over to the horn to try to capture the human voice's shouts, inflections and improvisations. Buddy played in numerous brass street bands in New Orleans, but went nuts and died early. He is the predecessor to Louis Armstrong, and Louis got a lot of his stuff from Buddy and Joe (King) Oliver (and you better know who Joe was - there would be no Satch if it wasn't for Joe Oliver)). Buddy, unfortunately, was never recorded, and all we have to know about him came from Satchmo. Take it from there. Know your roots and give props to those who came before you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Bolden

Invalid Link Removed

http://www.neworleansonline.com/neworleans/music/musichistory/musicgreats/buddybolden.html

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Then you do not know your jazz history, and you sure are not a trumpet player from New Orleans. Sorry, a lot of jazz players and historians know about Buddy. Not knowing Buddy is is like not knowing who Thomas Edison is. Buddy and his band is where it all came from. I'm a bass player and know about him! Jeez. As bassists, we should know where the other instruments we play with got their influences, so we can phrase and swing with them, and know where they are going when they improvise, so we can respond and reinforce their solos. This is basic stuff.

Buddy Bolden, a cornet player who was born and lived in New Orleans, is credited with creating jazz. In a nutshell, he took the field hollers, the call and response chants, the black church songs, the blues,, and moved the vocal embellishments over to the horn to try to capture the human voice's shouts, inflections and improvisations. Buddy played in numerous brass street bands in New Orleans, but went nuts and died early. He is the predecessor to Louis Armstrong, and Louis got a lot of his stuff from Buddy and Joe (King) Oliver (and you better know who Joe was - there would be no Satch if it wasn't for Joe Oliver)). Buddy, unfortunately, was never recorded, and all we have to know about him came from Satchmo. Take it from there. Know your roots and give props to those who came before you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Bolden

Invalid Link Removed

http://www.neworleansonline.com/neworleans/music/musichistory/musicgreats/buddybolden.html

Eric said, "I've never heard him, don't think anyone living has.", not "I've never heard of him, don't think anyone living has." If I'm talking his point correctly, he was pointing out that Bolden was never recorded, and there is no remaining living person who has ever heard him play. All we have at this point relating to Bolden's playing is secondhand accounts of how he sounded, or - to borrow a phrase - dancing about architecture.

Big difference.

 

[gerry grable]

Eric said, "I've never heard him, don't think anyone living has.", not "I've never heard of him, don't think anyone living has."

Big difference.

+1 for clarity

 

[dvh]

I think jazz is "musician's music". I put '70s progrock like ELP & Genesis (until they sold out) in a category like that too.

Don't taze me here , bro's...but regular peeps wanna hear pop songs. Today's skrillix, rap and that poo ain't music.

Stuff like Christina Agullairia? Yes. I have a 12 year old son, who's playing the drums...likes Maiden, Foo Fighters...stuff like that. Good stuff for a 12 year old. But go past his locker room at the rink and the ghetto rap is blastin like crazy. Yep. In a hockey rink. What you're exposed to, you get familiar with it and begin to like that. So he likes some rap too. A big NO from me on the obscene stuff though. We were driving down to a fest gig last week (he kind of roadies for us...especially the drummer) and a car pulled up next to us with the BOOM BOOM BOOM going, we started talking rap and I pulled up a couple of things like "The Humpty Dance" and De La Soul's "Me Myself and I". He loved it. IMO that's when rap had some musical value to it.

Here's where I'm afraid of the tazer...someone called Wham!'s Wake Me Up Before You Go Go, a perfect example of a pop song...

Don't know if I got this right but...a hook (do the jitterbug), a singable verse and a refrain to fade.

That's what regular people like.

That's fine, they can listen to it. Lots of other regular people enjoy jazz.....

 

[georgiagoodie]

Jazz is not for the dumb masses.....

 

[Treyzer]

Amazing this conversation is still going. It's kind of like asking that age old question, "How many angels are on the head of a pin"? Waking up this morning in Hawaii (general area, beautiful day), having coffee, thinking about the 3 or 4 steady jazz gigs I have each week with good to great players where we all get paid pretty well. Last night was a great night & beautiful sunset. Jazz is not dead as far as my personal experience and there are lots of non-musician people who love it. Many go so far as to e-mail us from the mainland and ask when and where we are playing. It seems that there are quite a number of non-players who love this music. Many of them are quite well informed and ask for some of the more obscure standards. We are happy to oblige. Cover that baby!