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Double Bass Why isn't Jazz that popular? (DB forum thread)

"popularity" takes many forms. It's true that jazz concert ticket sales and record sales don't come anywhere near those of rock of various kinds, or country. However, in live spaces there is a continued demand for jazz. Whether it's Sunday brunch at the hotel or Wednesday night at the cafe. There are environments where people still want live jazz.

Now, you can say that's because those folks are treating it as background music, and there would be some truth to that. But the flip side of that is that I feel a lot of freedom to play the way I want to play, sometimes traditional on the upright and sometimes further out, or funkier, on the fretless BG.

I play rock and other styles too, but I can't imagine not keeping my hand in playing jazz. It's just a side of me, and I think a lot of people feel that way. Even the customers who are treating it, to some extent, as background music are there because it's jazz.
 
"popularity" takes many forms. It's true that jazz concert ticket sales and record sales don't come anywhere near those of rock of various kinds, or country. However, in live spaces there is a continued demand for jazz. Whether it's Sunday brunch at the hotel or Wednesday night at the cafe. There are environments where people still want live jazz.

Now, you can say that's because those folks are treating it as background music, and there would be some truth to that. But the flip side of that is that I feel a lot of freedom to play the way I want to play, sometimes traditional on the upright and sometimes further out, or funkier, on the fretless BG.

I play rock and other styles too, but I can't imagine not keeping my hand in playing jazz. It's just a side of me, and I think a lot of people feel that way. Even the customers who are treating it, to some extent, as background music are there because it's jazz.

I think a lot of what you've said is part of the problem. People who want live jazz as background music for their Sunday brunch aren't a valuable audience. They don't know the music, don't really care who's playing it, they just want the blend of class and cool that has been marketed as a hallmark of jazz. They may own a few jazz CDs that they play when they have dinner parties, probably Kind of Blue, Blue Train and Time Out.

They'll go see Jarrett or Sonny when they play the local concert hall (for $100/ticket), but they will not go to a small club to hear lesser known artists. They don't own any jazz music released in the last 20 years (unless you count Diana Krall or Michael Buble). They see jazz as something that happened, not something that continues to be alive and vibrant.

These people play right into the Marsalis/Crouch way of thinking, that jazz basically stopped evolving sometime in the 1950s and anyone who plays free or electric or who draws on elements from rock is not really playing jazz.
 
You obviously haven't heard much jazz, so maybe don't make sweeping generalizations about something you don't understand.

I'm assuming your a boring person who lacks spirit.

"It's boring and lacks spirit" is a perception - can't be right, can be wrong, but 100% valid from an individual perspective, which is what he's giving.

Why the aggression?
 
You obviously haven't heard much jazz, so maybe don't make sweeping generalizations about something you don't understand.

Yes, I have heard lots of jazz; although I can't provide you with the ticket stubs and receipts for every show I've been to (which means I haven't ever been to any, right?) Everyone on my wife’s side of the family plays in various groups in and around the New Orleans and Baton Rouge area. One’s a drummer, one’s a sax and piano player, one’s a bassist (he’s probably lurking around here somewhere.) Every time I talk to them, or go to the area, they have me go watch on one of their shows, or one of their friends’ shows. They constantly try to convince me that jazz is entertaining. Jazz entertains me about as much as a Ziggy comic entertains a door hinge.

Every time this discussion comes up people try to introduce me to more jazz, or better jazz, or the “right” jazz, or educate me on how great jazz is in some other fashion. Over and over again, like the 15 year old who thinks he is the first person to ever discover Frank Zappa and tries to convince you that Zappa is the greatest musician of all time past and time to come.


So far there have been two major points made in this thread.

Horns: I hate horns. I have never heard a solo horn player perform at a reasonable volume for the situation they are in. Although acceptable in supportive groups of three or more, any of the hundreds of different solo horn players I’ve listened to seem to feel the need to seek vengeance on the ears of everyone around for being the only guy having to regulate their breathing patterns. The horn players give the entire jazz community a bad name. If I see a marquee for a jazz band that features the sultry dynamic sounds of John Tromboner, I cringe and keep walking; instead of not cringing.

Accessibility: Other than the rare instance where a jazz crew employs the labor of a hype man, or just has exceptional stage presence, jazz is boring. That is why people want it as a background sound to what is going on; jazz by itself holds people’s attention for a shorter time than a gold fish remembers what you’ve named it. The band playing jazz could be just as happy playing to a crowded coliseum as they could playing on the back porch, the audience doesn’t matter. It is not for an audience, it is for the musicians. Unless the audience is made up of musicians and they are actively studying the musical event unfolding before them. It is a practice of study. If you aren’t watching a jazz team and studying what it is that they, or any individual playing, is doing as, as a musician, then you are probably more worried about how large your bar tab is than the music.

And my point of lacking spirit: Someone else up there in the above comments said something about jazz being like watching a bunch of dudes solve math problems. That is a great way to state the lack of spirit, and also ties into my argument for accessibility. The music is great for the performers, but to sit there and watch a guy noodle around until he finds the “one” again and call it “avant guard talent” is crap. Listening to a drummer, a bass player, and either a pianist or guitar player all playing together; then having another one or two guys go off on their own thing is annoying. It always reminds me of when you are at band practice and trying to work out a part with the new guy, while one of the other guys not paying attention to what is going on starts wailing away on his tool of destruction and distracting the entire room from the task at hand.
 
Yes, I have heard lots of jazz; although I can't provide you with the ticket stubs and receipts for every show I've been to (which means I haven't ever been to any, right?) Everyone on my wife’s side of the family plays in various groups in and around the New Orleans and Baton Rouge area. One’s a drummer, one’s a sax and piano player, one’s a bassist (he’s probably lurking around here somewhere.) Every time I talk to them, or go to the area, they have me go watch on one of their shows, or one of their friends’ shows. They constantly try to convince me that jazz is entertaining. Jazz entertains me about as much as a Ziggy comic entertains a door hinge.

Every time this discussion comes up people try to introduce me to more jazz, or better jazz, or the “right” jazz, or educate me on how great jazz is in some other fashion. Over and over again, like the 15 year old who thinks he is the first person to ever discover Frank Zappa and tries to convince you that Zappa is the greatest musician of all time past and time to come.


So far there have been two major points made in this thread.

Horns: I hate horns. I have never heard a solo horn player perform at a reasonable volume for the situation they are in. Although acceptable in supportive groups of three or more, any of the hundreds of different solo horn players I’ve listened to seem to feel the need to seek vengeance on the ears of everyone around for being the only guy having to regulate their breathing patterns. The horn players give the entire jazz community a bad name. If I see a marquee for a jazz band that features the sultry dynamic sounds of John Tromboner, I cringe and keep walking; instead of not cringing.

Accessibility: Other than the rare instance where a jazz crew employs the labor of a hype man, or just has exceptional stage presence, jazz is boring. That is why people want it as a background sound to what is going on; jazz by itself holds people’s attention for a shorter time than a gold fish remembers what you’ve named it. The band playing jazz could be just as happy playing to a crowded coliseum as they could playing on the back porch, the audience doesn’t matter. It is not for an audience, it is for the musicians. Unless the audience is made up of musicians and they are actively studying the musical event unfolding before them. It is a practice of study. If you aren’t watching a jazz team and studying what it is that they, or any individual playing, is doing as, as a musician, then you are probably more worried about how large your bar tab is than the music.

And my point of lacking spirit: Someone else up there in the above comments said something about jazz being like watching a bunch of dudes solve math problems. That is a great way to state the lack of spirit, and also ties into my argument for accessibility. The music is great for the performers, but to sit there and watch a guy noodle around until he finds the “one” again and call it “avant guard talent” is crap. Listening to a drummer, a bass player, and either a pianist or guitar player all playing together; then having another one or two guys go off on their own thing is annoying. It always reminds me of when you are at band practice and trying to work out a part with the new guy, while one of the other guys not paying attention to what is going on starts wailing away on his tool of destruction and distracting the entire room from the task at hand.

Basically, what you are saying is all jazz sucks?
 
i can enjoy most old Latin Jazz and i can't explain why. i enjoy it the same way i enjoyed pop music as a child with no musical education. i just did.

i have tried and tried to listen to 'jazz'. recently was in a car for an hour with someone playing Miles Davis. i was so happy to be out of the car. i thought i was listening to a soundtrack about going mad.

i felt it had no flow, no cohesion. it had no words. it didn't have a simpler pop beat. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD QUIT PLAYING THAT M'FING HORN SO LOUD AND ALL OVER THE PLACE. IT IS THE MUSICAL EQUIVALENT TO NAILS ON A CHALKBOARD. -iedit, thank you

it has no place in my musical world. but 50's - late 60's latin jazz does it for me (for a few songs at a time, can't listen too long or it makes want to kick dogs n cats).

i don't like new country music but i love classic country. can't explain that one either....
 
topo morto said:
"It's boring and lacks spirit" is a perception - can't be right, can be wrong, but 100% valid from an individual perspective, which is what he's giving.

Why the aggression?

Mostly because when someone says that what you spend your life on sucks most people get aggressive... I don't mind when people say that they don't like jazz, that's fine, but saying that it's just a bunch of guys noodling is bs.
 
icecycle66 said:
Yes, I have heard lots of jazz; although I can't provide you with the ticket stubs and receipts for every show I've been to (which means I haven't ever been to any, right?) Everyone on my wife’s side of the family plays in various groups in and around the New Orleans and Baton Rouge area. One’s a drummer, one’s a sax and piano player, one’s a bassist (he’s probably lurking around here somewhere.) Every time I talk to them, or go to the area, they have me go watch on one of their shows, or one of their friends’ shows. They constantly try to convince me that jazz is entertaining. Jazz entertains me about as much as a Ziggy comic entertains a door hinge.

Every time this discussion comes up people try to introduce me to more jazz, or better jazz, or the “right” jazz, or educate me on how great jazz is in some other fashion. Over and over again, like the 15 year old who thinks he is the first person to ever discover Frank Zappa and tries to convince you that Zappa is the greatest musician of all time past and time to come.

So far there have been two major points made in this thread.

Horns: I hate horns. I have never heard a solo horn player perform at a reasonable volume for the situation they are in. Although acceptable in supportive groups of three or more, any of the hundreds of different solo horn players I’ve listened to seem to feel the need to seek vengeance on the ears of everyone around for being the only guy having to regulate their breathing patterns. The horn players give the entire jazz community a bad name. If I see a marquee for a jazz band that features the sultry dynamic sounds of John Tromboner, I cringe and keep walking; instead of not cringing.

Accessibility: Other than the rare instance where a jazz crew employs the labor of a hype man, or just has exceptional stage presence, jazz is boring. That is why people want it as a background sound to what is going on; jazz by itself holds people’s attention for a shorter time than a gold fish remembers what you’ve named it. The band playing jazz could be just as happy playing to a crowded coliseum as they could playing on the back porch, the audience doesn’t matter. It is not for an audience, it is for the musicians. Unless the audience is made up of musicians and they are actively studying the musical event unfolding before them. It is a practice of study. If you aren’t watching a jazz team and studying what it is that they, or any individual playing, is doing as, as a musician, then you are probably more worried about how large your bar tab is than the music.

And my point of lacking spirit: Someone else up there in the above comments said something about jazz being like watching a bunch of dudes solve math problems. That is a great way to state the lack of spirit, and also ties into my argument for accessibility. The music is great for the performers, but to sit there and watch a guy noodle around until he finds the “one” again and call it “avant guard talent” is crap. Listening to a drummer, a bass player, and either a pianist or guitar player all playing together; then having another one or two guys go off on their own thing is annoying. It always reminds me of when you are at band practice and trying to work out a part with the new guy, while one of the other guys not paying attention to what is going on starts wailing away on his tool of destruction and distracting the entire room from the task at hand.

Out of curiosity what bands do you find interesting? I'm not going to bash them, I'm just wondering where your coming from.
 
Smooth Jazz ?
Contemporary Jazz ?
Swing Jazz ?
Cool Jazz ?
Acid Jazz ? .......

The list goes on . There is a huge difference between genres too, I must say however that it is frustrating listening to people blow on about Slash , The Edge etc when there are guys out there in the " jazz " scene that could piss over those guys blind drunk . I suppose my favourite is contempoary Jazz , I usually look for the players rather than the bands guys like Alex Al , Nathan East , Will Lee , Marcus Miller etc .... guys who can play with almost anyone and really nail a groove . There is no such thing as the perfect album though , but some of the stuff out by guys like Jeff Lorber , Fourplay , Mezzoforte , Acoustic Alchemy etc is top notch as far as production and groove goes , I also like the distinct lack of vocals !. I must say that smooth Jazz does have some great players but its usually spoiled by too much Reverb , turns a great groove into a Porno track or department store music .

fixed.... also some you've listed are VERY pop influenced... not being a bad thing just an observation..

The best new instrumental music has influences from all around...

My policy is that people wont know they hate jazz unless they know that's what they're listening to.

And i agree that most people want music to sing along to that doesn't come across as snobbery (which a lot of jazz musicians LIKE)
 
Not my point, I personally like what you posted but for someone who has never really listened to jazz this is the least relatable thing you could post. The names that you posted in this quoted comment are all great starting points, except for maybe sun ra (haha I still don't dig him)

I disagree with the idea that listeners should start with the less free as the more modern and cross genre the music is the more likely the non-jazz fan is to hear something they identify with as the music is not older than the listener.

Tell Me that Jim Black's AlasNoAxis is not easily related to by someone who never listens to jazz.
 
Having played both jazz and other genres/styles of music, and having been as open minded, and appreciative of as much music as i possibly can, I believe jazz is just culturally irrelevant. Jazz today is not what jazz was back "then". It is reserved for the "real" musicians, and not the guy lookin to just play and experience the music. Yes, there are things you have to know in order to play jazz, but the common man has been erased from contemporary jazz, and frankly isn't wanted. Go ahead and play your heart out, but don't expect people to get it...in the end, i don't think "jazzers" want em to anyway...
 
Basically, what you are saying is all jazz sucks?

Yeah, mostly.
I can't say that 100% of the time listening to jazz makes me miserable, just a great majority of the time.

It usually feels (we like talking about the "feel" of stuff here in the forums) like I am waiting for my turn at the dentist's office. I always feel like I could be doing anything else and it would be better.

Remember when you were a little kid, and you had to get dressed up for some distant cousins wedding. That feeling you had sitting there in the ceremony, that's the feeling I get when listening to enough jazz to make sweeping comments about the entire genre of music.
 
You know the majority of the problem I see with people in general..

The inability to see a lot of things are indeed "subjective" and being able to accept the opinions of others, even if they disagree with it...

But just saying thats cool it works for him even though i disagree doesn't make me right/wrong or better/worse

Putting the ego aside...
 
Yeah, mostly.
I can't say that 100% of the time listening to jazz makes me miserable, just a great majority of the time.

It usually feels (we like talking about the "feel" of stuff here in the forums) like I am waiting for my turn at the dentist's office. I always feel like I could be doing anything else and it would be better.

Remember when you were a little kid, and you had to get dressed up for some distant cousins wedding. That feeling you had sitting there in the ceremony, that's the feeling I get when listening to enough jazz to make sweeping comments about the entire genre of music.

So... what doesn't suck? :help:
 
Out of curiosity what bands do you find interesting? I'm not going to bash them, I'm just wondering where your coming from.


Here is a list of bands/artists I enjoy. I chose one artist/band from each page of CD’s in the catalogue I keep in my truck. I do like them all, or I wouldn’t have bought their stuff.

Acid Bath
Amon Amarth
Clint Black
Blind Guardian
Bob Marley
Creedence Clearwater Revival
Daft Punk
Days of the new
Dethklok
Dream Theater
Electric Light Orchestra
Funkadelic
Peter Gabriel
Immortal
Blind lemon Jefferson
Jimi Hendrix
King Crimson
Led Zeppelin
A collection of Irish folk music
Curtis Mayfield
Megadeth
Metallica
Misfits
Nickleback
N.W.A.
Pantera
Pink
Pink Floyd
Red Hot Chili Peppers
Rush
Joe Satriani
Scale the Summit
Six Feet Under
George Straight
U2
Venom
Peetie Wheatstraw
Yes
Zebrahead