Why no tungsten strings for electric bass guitar?

[LowB-ing]

So it's been over 15 years since I started thinking about the possibilities opened up by using heavier materials in bass strings to keep the diameter down and still get good weight/tension on the lower strings. Gold, lead and tungsten all passed through my imagination at the time.

It's been about 10 years since I learned about tungsten being used in new strings for upright bass and cello, and I thought "Now it's just a matter of time 'till someone does this for bass guitar. Finally. It's the obvious thing to do."

Well, here we are, ten years later and still no tungsten strings for bass guitar. Why? As mentioned above they work for upright. I'm sure they would be more expensive than your typical BG strings, but there's a pretty large contingent of players who would be willing to pay a premium for a string that slays the competition in terms of evenness of tone and tension. I don't think they would be outrageously expensive (unlike my gold fantasies of 15 years ago ) given the current DB offerings.

Less magnetic strength shouldn't be a problem either, because the core would still be steel. In fact the Corelli 370 tungsten strings for upright work with magnetic pickups, and that was probably not even a priority during their development.

So, D'Addario, GHS, LaBella, Kalium and other string makers who have a presence on TB. Tell me why this hasn't happened yet.


Others are of course welcome to chime in as well.

EDIT: Please excuse my sloppy terminology. By "tungsten" I mean any high density tungsten alloy, not necessarily pure tungsten metal.

 

[HolmeBass]

Definitely an interesting idea. But it might take a new-comer to tip over the apple cart and make it happen. The current players in electric string market probably figure why bother? Strings are a much bigger deal for upright than for electric - I know, kind of hard to believe, but that's my impression after getting into upright this year - so I can understand why that market developed it. Most seasoned upright players use at least two different brands of strings on upright, one for the E and A and a different kind for the D and G.

 

[Gorn]

Tell me why this hasn't happened yet.

Complete lack of demand? That's my guess.

 

[M0ses]

I guess people like what they got.

 

[Oneirogenic]

Bass guitar is a relatively new instrument compared to the upright bass so innovation in string design is taking awhile especially since most players can't be bothered to go beyond the industry standards. If piezo pickups became more common gut, synthetic, and other non ferrous materials could be commonplace for bass guitar strings. I bet "old school thump" guys would love gut strings on a bass guitar.

 

[SirMjac28]

For some reason I think electric bass players don't embrace new innovations very quickly which is why everyone and their brother are still cloning Leo's designs decades later.

 

[Toptube]

GHS Progressives? (great strings BTW)

http://www.ghsstrings.com/strings/electric/progressives

 

[Oneirogenic]

I think TI, La Bella, and D'Addario would be the companies most likely to make bass guitar out of other materials since they already produce upright bass strings. Rope cores in bass guitar strings could be a possible advancement although I'm not sure what advantages it would offer.

 

[Inertialsky]

tungsten is expensive and very difficult to machine.

I imagine a set of strings would be in the ~$500 range even on a mass production level

 

[Jon Moody]

Less magnetic strength shouldn't be a problem either, because the core would still be steel. In fact the Corelli 370 tungsten strings for upright work with magnetic pickups, and that was probably not even a priority during their development.

Corelli 370 strings are a tungsten-steel alloy (not pure tungsten), so that's probably what is helping in the magnetic pickups, although the large majority of URB players that use pickups use piezos. For us EB players however, magnetic strength is a very large issue; put a set of phosphor bronze on your electric, non-piezo, bass and tell me your results.

As mentioned, the string demand for URB players is much more precise than it is over here. I've talked with Mark Gollihur (from Gollihur Music) at length about the tonal wants and needs of URB players. It's a lot more specialized and demanding; guys there are more specific. You have players that want a set of strings good for arco, or good for classical pizz, or a set of jazz strings, so on and so forth.

Us? How many of us are looking for a set of strings that can cover a wide variety of genres?

So, D'Addario, GHS, LaBella, Kalium and other string makers who have a presence on TB. Tell me why this hasn't happened yet.

Maybe because many of the strings that have come out in the past that have had new and "innovative" materials have met with an initial interest, but time has seen many of these get discontinued.

It's definitely something I can bring up, but has already been mentioned, we brought Alloy 52 (nickel-iron) onto the market decades ago and it's still only achieved nominal success, despite having a lot of benefits toward electric instruments (higher magnetic output, longevity, tone, etc..). But hey, I'm always looking into making more work for the production staff...

 

[lz4005]

tungsten is expensive and very difficult to machine.

Doesn't it have one of the highest melting points of all metals? That's why it gets used in drill bits and light bulb filaments.

 

[LowB-ing]

Please excuse my sloppy use of the term. In discussions of DB/cello strings, the term "tungsten" gets thrown around quite a bit as a reference to any high density tungsten alloy used for making strings.

Good catch. I have updated my OP.

I'm fully aware that pure tungsten metal is way to hard and brittle to make strings from.

tungsten is expensive and very difficult to machine.

Doesn't it have one of the highest melting points of all metals? That's why it gets used in drill bits and light bulb filaments.

 

[LowB-ing]

I stated in my OP why I think there's no reason to believe they would have to be so expensive. A set of Corelli 370 costs ~$110 and a set of D'Addario zyex costs ~$150.

The tungsten (alloy) is mostly used for the lower strings with other materials often used for the D and G strings, but this just might be the way to do it for BG too.

I imagine a set of strings would be in the ~$500 range even on a mass production level

 

[StayLow]

^ "How many of us are looking for a set of strings that can cover a wide variety of genres?"

Many, including me. No problem at all finding them. We don't arco, etc.

Genres are a playing approach on EB, so it's all about practice not a string or bass design.

 

[Jon Moody]

I stated in my OP why I think there's no reason to believe they would have to be so expensive. A set of Corelli 370 costs ~$110 and a set of D'Addario zyex costs ~$150..

Yeah, it looks to be comparable in price.

Interesting to note though that the Corelli 370 strings, due to the tungsten alloy, have a much smaller diameter (the E string on the "light" set is an .083). While I'm sure the tension is probably comparable to regular gauges, I would wonder how many people would see the thinner gauges as a detriment?

 

[LowB-ing]

Corelli 370 strings are a tungsten-steel alloy (not pure tungsten), so that's probably what is helping in the magnetic pickups, although the large majority of URB players that use pickups use piezos.

I would guess that the same alloy might be suitable for BG strings. I also think that the solid steel core of a BG string would make it even better with mag pickups. The Corellis have some sort of rope core right?

For us EB players however, magnetic strength is a very large issue; put a set of phosphor bronze on your electric, non-piezo, bass and tell me your results.

I'm not advocating phosphor bronze strings here My point (in OP and above) was that magnetic strength would indeed not be a problem if a similar alloy was used as in the Corellis in combination with a steel core.

Perhaps one could even use a steel outer winding, only using tungsten for the inner windings?

Maybe because many of the strings that have come out in the past that have had new and "innovative" materials have met with an initial interest, but time has seen many of these get discontinued.

...but has already been mentioned, we brought Alloy 52 (nickel-iron) onto the market decades ago and it's still only achieved nominal success, despite having a lot of benefits toward electric instruments (higher magnetic output, longevity, tone, etc..).

The main selling point of Alloy52 has seemed to be the higher magnetic output, which is a bit of a solution looking for a problem. Most modern passive pickups are already capable of choking standard strings if you set them to close. Even more magnetic "strength" from the strings just means you have to put the pickups a bit further away to get the "sweet spot". Sure, there is the occasional pickup with weaker magnets that will indeed benefit from the extra magnetic strength of Alloy52, but I don't think it's the norm. Anyway, if they sound better and have longer life I'm all for it. I've been curious about trying them for a long time. I'm just waiting for you to come out with a B-string that has a tension of 35-40 lbs, preferably in the upper end of that range. I don't think a .131 will accomplish that (unless there's high density alloy in it, heh).

...which brings us back to the topic at hand:

Complete lack of demand? That's my guess.

I guess people like what they got.

Hardly a day goes by without someone posting complaints here on TB about how their B-string feels floppy/sloppy/like-a-wet-noodle (which is the direct result of to little tension) or about how the B sounds dull/muddy/doesn't-blend-with-the-other-strings (which is the direct result of the large diameter required to get higher tension). These are exactly the kind of problems that high density tungsten alloys serve to address. This is exactly how tungsten is used in DB strings, and why it's often used on only the lower strings.

There is a demand. It's just that no one knows there's a solution out there waiting to be applied. The success* of things like multi scale basses is testament to this demand, and increasing awareness among players of what makes low notes sound the way they do.

It's definitely something I can bring up...

But hey, I'm always looking into making more work for the production staff...

That would be very cool! You already scored bonus points by being the only manufacturer to chime in so far. Big thanks!

* (EDIT) Success relatively speaking. The fact that basses like this sell at all is pretty big in my book, considering how extremely and obviously non-traditional they are. Just 15 years ago "fanned frets" was pretty much unheard of, even though Dingwall did exist.

 

[LowB-ing]

Yeah, it looks to be comparable in price.

Interesting to note though that the Corelli 370 strings, due to the tungsten alloy, have a much smaller diameter (the E string on the "light" set is an .083). While I'm sure the tension is probably comparable to regular gauges, I would wonder how many people would see the thinner gauges as a detriment?

But the smaller diameter while maintaining high mass/tension is the very point of it all (as mentioned in my OP). That's what allows such a string to be brighter and clearer. If you publish tension figures, the more aware players (and string nerds, heh) would be quick to latch on. Then the word would start to spread...

 

[LowB-ing]

^ "How many of us are looking for a set of strings that can cover a wide variety of genres?"

Many, including me. No problem at all finding them. We don't arco, etc.

Genres are a playing approach on EB, so it's all about practice not a string or bass design.

How many are looking for better low B-strings? Quite many, it turns out. While there are a few really good B-strings out there theses days, there's still a lot of room for improvement.

 

[StayLow]

^ Possibly a fraction of the bass talking community. Were I a major manufacturer, I'd filter that as white noise and it seems most do outside of one-man pedal builders and small custom shops.

As far as bass playing goes, I've have no problem finding and getting paid to gig & record 34" B-strings going on 10 or 15 years now.

 

[LowB-ing]

^ Possibly a fraction of the bass talking community. Were I a major manufacturer, I'd filter that as white noise and it seems most do outside of one-man pedal builders and small custom shops.

As far as bass playing goes, I've have no problem finding and getting paid to gig & record 34" B-strings going on 10 or 15 years now.

Paul McCartney pretty much didn't care what strings he used, period. Didn't stop him from recording top selling songs and making millions. He was fully content with what was available at the time. Same thing with many high selling artist and rock stars through the history of BG actually.

Yet, here you are, playing a B-string. Which wouldn't be possible if it wasn't for development in string design that has happened since.

That development payed off for the manufacturers and brought much joy to 5-string players across the world.

You may be content with what's available and thus not in the target market for this hypothetical string, but I do think there is a market for strings with better tonal balance all the way down to B.